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Author Topic: When the partnership 'effort' is not even  (Read 3826 times)
ttd
Open Bronze
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Posts: 642


« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2010, 03:23:29 PM »

Does it make a difference what your role is? I always felt that it's easier for the guy to bring the girl up to his level, rather than other way around.

It really doesn't matter.

Here are a couple of examples of where the men were the weaker link in the beginning

Luca and Lorraine Baricchi (Standard)

Corky and Shirley Ballas (Latin)
How much weaker? I doubt either of these men were doing, like, bronze when they started dancing with their respective partners.
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2010, 03:33:29 PM »

I am not entirely sure but I seem to remember that Luca was in the top 96 when Lorraine started dancing with him. Lorraine was 3rd in the world.

I think Corky was Shirley's pro-am student. I am however not sure at what level he was dancing when he first started dancing with her. Shirley was a World Champion.

So if we are talking bronze to pre-champ or championship level in the US then that would be about the distance these guys had to jump in the ranks.
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
ttd
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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2010, 03:49:49 PM »

I am not entirely sure but I seem to remember that Luca was in the top 96 when Lorraine started dancing with him. Lorraine was 3rd in the world.

I think Corky was Shirley's pro-am student. I am however not sure at what level he was dancing when he first started dancing with her. Shirley was a World Champion.

So if we are talking bronze to pre-champ or championship level in the US then that would be about the distance these guys had to jump in the ranks.


Yes, something like that. Plus they'd have to switch style from smooth to standard (or add standard). Not that I am looking for someone to compete with on USA dance amateur circuit, but a capable practice partner (so that the practice is immediately beneficial to both) would be nice.
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Some guy
Intermediate Silver
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2010, 03:54:24 PM »

I think it only takes an instant to make a drastic improvement.
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Rugby
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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2010, 04:01:18 PM »

One of my old instructors who trained in England told me that he realized that the women were usually the stronger dancers in the long run.  He was a real chauvenist too but over the years and after working with many of the great couples he had to admit that the lady was more adaptable, had to put up with and deal with the man's s**t and still do her part. 

One thing I have noticed is that the women usually learn the man's part but not many men bother to learn the women's.  Again the above instructor asked my DP how was he supposed to lead me when he didn't know where I was supposed to be going.  I think it is a huge benefit if the man were able to do or at least understand the ladies part by the time they get to at least Open level.  I have some lady friends that I practice with where I do the man's part.  It works for them as they have no men to practice with and for me I work on my man's part.  They always tell me what a great lead I am.  I'm not saying I lead like a competition level guy but since I know where the lady is going, what she has to do and what helps or hinders her I can use this info for my leads.  I understand her needs and thus can try and meet them.  I started to learn the man's part years ago in first American Style then International so that I could be in the shoes of my partner and understand how I influence him.  By learning the man's part I realize what the man needs from the lady and how the lady helps, hinders and so forth by what she does and doesn't do.  You really begin to understand your own role so much more when you have been in the other person's shoes.  Also, by understanding both parts you begin to get an appreciation of the difficulty of both roles and your respect for each increases.  Just try it and you will change your attitude about what your partner has to do compared to you real fast. 
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
Some guy
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2010, 04:09:55 PM »

I agree.  I think I need to learn more lady's parts.  BTM, there is no dual meaning in that!  Grin
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2010, 04:30:28 PM »

One of my old instructors who trained in England told me that he realized that the women were usually the stronger dancers in the long run.  He was a real chauvenist too but over the years and after working with many of the great couples he had to admit that the lady was more adaptable, had to put up with and deal with the man's s**t and still do her part. 

One thing I have noticed is that the women usually learn the man's part but not many men bother to learn the women's.  Again the above instructor asked my DP how was he supposed to lead me when he didn't know where I was supposed to be going.  I think it is a huge benefit if the man were able to do or at least understand the ladies part by the time they get to at least Open level.  I have some lady friends that I practice with where I do the man's part.  It works for them as they have no men to practice with and for me I work on my man's part.  They always tell me what a great lead I am.  I'm not saying I lead like a competition level guy but since I know where the lady is going, what she has to do and what helps or hinders her I can use this info for my leads.  I understand her needs and thus can try and meet them.  I started to learn the man's part years ago in first American Style then International so that I could be in the shoes of my partner and understand how I influence him.  By learning the man's part I realize what the man needs from the lady and how the lady helps, hinders and so forth by what she does and doesn't do.  You really begin to understand your own role so much more when you have been in the other person's shoes.  Also, by understanding both parts you begin to get an appreciation of the difficulty of both roles and your respect for each increases.  Just try it and you will change your attitude about what your partner has to do compared to you real fast. 


I have to totally agree with you here. Great post!
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
Rugby
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« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2010, 11:57:33 PM »

I would encourage everyone to try it.  Honestly you will be so glad you did and you will be so much stronger in your own role for it.  It gives you the feeling that you have a more complete picture and you will wonder how you could have danced without it.  Besides, if you are ever thinking of teaching down the road you will be far more confident and the better teacher for it.
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
ttd
Open Bronze
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Posts: 642


« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2010, 11:05:28 AM »

I tried working out man's part of some simpler steps - just took the standard manual and worked through the charts for the guy for some of the bronze patterns I was doing. But I still was doing it without a partner to lead, so I didn't feel that the exercise had the desired results.
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2010, 01:42:50 PM »

I tried working out man's part of some simpler steps - just took the standard manual and worked through the charts for the guy for some of the bronze patterns I was doing. But I still was doing it without a partner to lead, so I didn't feel that the exercise had the desired results.

I have several times taken lessons from my teachers where I danced the man's part and they dance the lady's part. I also have several lady students that have taken lessons where they danced the man's part. It might just be an idea to take a lesson and ask if you can be the man for that lesson.
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2010, 04:45:20 PM »

The best bit for me knowing the mans part is that you get to participate in the choreography - thats hard to do from the woman's part alone...
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drj
Bronze
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« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2010, 08:26:04 AM »

<snip>
It might just be an idea to take a lesson and ask if you can be the man for that lesson.

I learned as much from 3 minutes of doing this as from 3 weeks of "just following." It is extremely revealing, especially since my instructor cut me no slack at all.  Embarrassed
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ancora imparo
samina
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« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2010, 09:09:43 AM »

interesting... i've had the impression that men, as they advance, are more prone to learn the lady's part than the lady learning the man's, if only to understand his own intentions -- where he ideally wants to "put" her -- so that they can become 2nd nature. while the lady doesn't need to know the man's part in order to follow his clear intentions.

just my take on it. perhaps my observations are mistaken.

for my part, i have *loved* when i've had the opportunity to learn how to lead standard or latin in class situations! what a revelation. and so fun, in a different way from following. Smiley
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2010, 11:08:07 AM »

Perhaps the men don't actually learn the lady's part, just enough to know where she wants to be (which is probably enough).  OTOH I spend a lot of time learning where my DP wants me to be - which usually means knowing when to hold up and when to go like the blazes Smiley  However, again, that does not necessarily mean I have to know his steps - I find they can actually be distracting from my real job...

perhaps DSV could comment on that - to learn the man's steps is surely learning jobs that are not your own...
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Dora-Satya Veda
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Posts: 6871


« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2010, 04:01:52 PM »

perhaps DSV could comment on that - to learn the man's steps is surely learning jobs that are not your own...

...sure, I can give my 2 cents worth on this.....

I was always taught that when you learn your partner’s jobs, you should be using “the Golden Routines” and not your regular routines. When you learn your partner’s jobs, you should just learn the basic principles of what it takes to initiate the actions or respond to the actions. There are not that many initiations or responses in ballroom dancing so it shouldn’t be too difficult to learn the basic actions. Once the actions are learned then it is up to the person initiating to combine the actions to create the step desired and the person responding to do the actions needed to respond. The combination of the actions is where it can get more or less complicated but it is fairly easy to do the actions for both the man and lady using your “Golden Routines”.


If a lady learns the regular routine then there would be a greater change that she might “back lead” the steps.

DSV
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
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