partnerdanceonline.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 21, 2014, 12:04:30 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
A lot of people are visiting Smiley Smiley
Undecided Undecided but not many are posting....
please say hi Cheesy
116434 Posts in 1855 Topics by 221 Members
Latest Member: EVE_Dance
* Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  partnerdanceonline.com
|-+  Partner Dancing
| |-+  Dancesport
| | |-+  General dancesport issues (Moderators: QPO, Rugby)
| | | |-+  Brutal Honesty in Lessons
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7 Print
Author Topic: Brutal Honesty in Lessons  (Read 8813 times)
emeralddancer
Intermediate Gold
**
Posts: 2979

Nottingham, MD (by way of NJ)


« on: November 12, 2009, 03:31:11 PM »

Hm .... only way I could actually come up with something that clearly defines what this thread is about.

2 points here:

It is prompted by SomeGuy's post in swing about a lesson with his instructor (DSV's sister) and the response by his instructor's sister. Thus invoking some things that have been on my mind.

I am ALL for brut honesty in spades and surely get it from DSV's sister, Dream and Medira ... (dear lord) ... anyway ... I understood perfectly and had no problem with their words at all. (except of course I didn't WANT to listen to them, however there was no way I was getting out of it  Smiley)

However ... in instruction of dance during lessons ... again respecting brut honesty .... some things I think are off limits right? So define I guess what is good brut honesty and what is not good brut honesty (even if the "not good" is true honesty)

ALSO ....

What constitutes dropping or not working with a student as posted by DSV about her sister?

Like ... I know certain things are obvious like being disrespectful.

BUT ... what if a student argues and IS trying but it is not working? Or they have to do it over and over again because of not getting it? Or what if student says I can't (but doesn't stop trying it is just a verbal frustration)

Am I making any sense in this?
Logged

It is more important who they are as people and only then is it important who they are as dancers.~Marcia Haydee
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1462


« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2009, 04:33:05 PM »

I definitely understand.  Here's my 2-cents: brutal honesty is easy to accept when the giver of their opinion is not injecting their ego or emotion into their statements.  I think the key here is that the coach shouldn't try to be brutal.  The coach should just make a statement of fact.  That's as brutal as it gets.  Any more effort on the coach's part to be "brutal" will have a less then desirable effect as their comments are now charged with energy that can be easily interpreted as ego, emotion, and worst of all, judgement.  

For example, I have had coaches who have been "brutally honest" about my dancing, but the fact that it was their ego giving me it's "judgement" rather than an objective evaluation of my abilities made it very hard to accept or even believe.  The biggest difference I can sense between this type of feedback and the variety that DSV's sister shells out with high frequency (she doesn't even stop to reload!) is the total lack of ego that presents itself in her statements.  A statement of fact is much easier to accept than when it comes in the form of "judgement".  People judge due to a need to feel superior to others.  When the order of the day is judgement it becomes very disheartening to want to co-operate.  A statement of fact is brutal honesty.  It doesn't matter whether it's praise or criticism.  When there is no ego behind it, it makes one want to improve as quickly as possible.  Is there any difference in the words used? Not very noticeable.  Is there a difference in the energy of the conversation?  You betcha!  Body language lends itself a lot to the definition too.  Brutal honesty accompanied with laughing, rolling of the eyes, etc., makes it hard to accept as the statements are injected with ego and emotion.  

I think in summary, if one TRIES to be brutally honest, then the result can be quite ineffective or downright undesirable.  Kind of like dancing: the more one tries, the less desirable the end result becomes.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 04:57:14 PM by Some guy » Logged
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34997


ee


« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2009, 05:35:55 PM »

.....if one TRIES to be brutally honest, then the result can be quite ineffective or downright undesirable.  Kind of like dancing: the more one tries, the less desirable the end result becomes.
nicely put...

but maybe, just maybe EM we need a few more clues.  Are we talking about dancing here only or about non-dance aspects of life?
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1462


« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2009, 06:06:18 PM »

Oh boy!  I just naturally assumed emeralddancer asked her question in a "dance" context.  My bad!

Whether dance related or not, I've become quite a fan of Yoda's quote: "try not.  Do, or do not.  There is no try".
Logged
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34997


ee


« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2009, 08:12:21 PM »

wasn't that said first by the great sage, Nike?
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Rugby
Moderator
Gold
****
Posts: 3591



« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2009, 11:31:12 PM »

I have no problem with instructors being brutally honest.  I am used to it after riding under all these old European Colonels when doing dressage.  Believe me, it was like being in the army and they didn't care.  The students they taught were higher level people so they had high expectations.  They were only brutal because they cared about you and knew you had capabilities they could bring out and of the ones that stuck with them they did just that.

In the first lesson I had with a female instructor, that was also a judge, she told me that my head position was so ugly that she had to look away at the comps.  I could have taken offense but instead I laughed and asked, " So does this mean that this is something I should work on"?  She had no problem telling us when we looked bad but when she gave a compliment it then carried a lot of weight.

A friend of mine was told by a high level instructor that when he danced he looked like "a retard selling pencils".  I couldn't stop laughing when I heard that one.

Let's face it, if you are told nicely you may remember it but when they are brutal it makes the comment something that will become a priority to work on. 

Not that I am agreeing with being honest in such a manner.       
Logged

Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
Dora-Satya Veda
Gold Star
***
Posts: 6871


« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2009, 12:07:56 AM »

I definitely understand.  Here's my 2-cents: brutal honesty is easy to accept when the giver of their opinion is not injecting their ego or emotion into their statements.  I think the key here is that the coach shouldn't try to be brutal.  The coach should just make a statement of fact.  That's as brutal as it gets.  Any more effort on the coach's part to be "brutal" will have a less then desirable effect as their comments are now charged with energy that can be easily interpreted as ego, emotion, and worst of all, judgement.   

I agree with SG here. If the brutal honesty is given as a factual statement and not clouded by emotion, ego or judging the person, then I see no problem with it.

Quote

For example, I have had coaches who have been "brutally honest" about my dancing, but the fact that it was their ego giving me it's "judgement" rather than an objective evaluation of my abilities made it very hard to accept or even believe.  The biggest difference I can sense between this type of feedback and the variety that DSV's sister shells out with high frequency (she doesn't even stop to reload!) is the total lack of ego that presents itself in her statements.  A statement of fact is much easier to accept than when it comes in the form of "judgement".  People judge due to a need to feel superior to others.  When the order of the day is judgement it becomes very disheartening to want to co-operate.  A statement of fact is brutal honesty.  It doesn't matter whether it's praise or criticism.  When there is no ego behind it, it makes one want to improve as quickly as possible.  Is there any difference in the words used? Not very noticeable.  Is there a difference in the energy of the conversation?  You betcha!  Body language lends itself a lot to the definition too.  Brutal honesty accompanied with laughing, rolling of the eyes, etc., makes it hard to accept as the statements are injected with ego and emotion. 
I was always told by my parents to not volunteer brutal honesty. If somebody asked for my opinion or help then I should be as honest and factual as possible. I was told it was important to not get emotional, to keep my ego to myself and not judge the person in any way or form. This would allow the person asking for help to feel love, cared for and safe to express what they need help or support with. I try to live my life by those words. I am sure there are many other definitions and ideas on this subject.

Wow, you have already experienced her way of dishing it out. You are right she does not stop to reload even for a second. She does mean well, though. SG, get used to hearing “that’s better” from her a lot. The highest compliment you will ever get from her is “that’s looks normal”, don’t expect anything else (I heard from one student that she is able to say “wow”). She learned that from the teachers in England and that totally fits her personality.
Logged

"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34997


ee


« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2009, 04:46:21 AM »

The relationship between the teacher and the student is key here.  If a trust has developed then the truth can be transmitted more directly and more bluntly.  However, if trust has not developed (for whatever reason) then an intent to tell the truth can not be distinguished from an intent to be hurtful.
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
QPO
Moderator
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20815


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2009, 07:22:55 AM »

I would rather Honesty but delivered in a constructive way. We are lucky that we have teachers that are no afraid to tell us if we are wrong but it is delivered constructively and then we try to do what they ask us to do, sometimes it just has to be told in a different way.

I don't believe making someone feel bad, is a good way to get the best from your students. Roll Eyes
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
emeralddancer
Intermediate Gold
**
Posts: 2979

Nottingham, MD (by way of NJ)


« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2009, 10:15:17 AM »

.....if one TRIES to be brutally honest, then the result can be quite ineffective or downright undesirable.  Kind of like dancing: the more one tries, the less desirable the end result becomes.
nicely put...

but maybe, just maybe EM we need a few more clues.  Are we talking about dancing here only or about non-dance aspects of life?

dance ... SomeGuy got it right!
Logged

It is more important who they are as people and only then is it important who they are as dancers.~Marcia Haydee
SwingWaltz
Gold Star
***
Posts: 5772


« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2009, 11:00:43 AM »

Haha...love this!

Our coach could nails both me and DP with nails on to the wall! Probably two nails would be needed for me, cause I'm so "naughty".
Sometimes it can be a bit embarrassing/awkward when other people are around the studio.

We were practising the other day, and out of no where, our coach yelled out "That was absolutely disgusting! Do it again, and do it right!" I kind of whinged. To which he replied "Stop whinging, or I'll give you something to really whinge about"

Got to love it!  Grin
Logged
SwingWaltz
Gold Star
***
Posts: 5772


« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2009, 11:01:44 AM »

Have to add that we're the only couple he does this too. He's very gentle with all his other couples.  Roll Eyes
Logged
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34997


ee


« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2009, 11:08:43 AM »

I know a few scientists who are the same.  If they are nice to you - it means they don't take your work seriously - but if they really tear into you thats the best complement you can get.

Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Dora-Satya Veda
Gold Star
***
Posts: 6871


« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2009, 11:55:34 AM »

I know a few scientists who are the same.  If they are nice to you - it means they don't take your work seriously - but if they really tear into you thats the best complement you can get.



That sounds like my main teachers. Everybody says they are really nice and gentle. I sometimes don't recognize that we are talking about the same teachers. Shocked
Logged

"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34997


ee


« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2009, 02:09:31 PM »


That sounds like my main teachers. Everybody says they are really nice and gentle. I sometimes don't recognize that we are talking about the same teachers. Shocked

Ain't that the truth!  Perhaps the difference is that for scientists its mostly not teaching that gets the sabres out but competition... Years ago when I was an junior prof I had a nobel laureate attack me at my poster.  I bemoaned this to his research assistant who came some time after - only to be told that I should feel very honoured that the great man had trashed my work!

The sequel to this is that it turns out he was wrong... Grin
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!