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Author Topic: Waltz 1-3 natural turn  (Read 3920 times)
elisedance
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« on: October 10, 2009, 02:13:39 AM »

[I've put this topic here because I think this step is so important that it spans beginner and advanced - but will move if anyone feels strongly about it]

In my opinion, the most important step in dancesport (standard).  Why? because Waltz is is almost always the first dance in the set (at least at all the competitions I am familiar with) and other than the prep step the 1-3 of a natural turn is the first step danced.  This can be the make or break with the judges.  If a judge sees you do a great one, I think you have them on side - and the same for the opposite!

I'm sure that I are in good company if I say that I have had more lessons on this step than all others - excepting perhaps the feather in Fox Trot.  Why?  Well its not difficult to actually do the step - if you mean getting from A to B - but the nuances in the step are endless and, more important, carry through to almost all others.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 02:17:52 AM by elisedance » Logged

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etp777
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2009, 02:30:02 AM »

Is natural to right or left, can't remember?  Smiley

I do know that I've had many people, even those who have nothing good to say about FA, compliment fact that in American syllabus at least, both VW and waltz have left AND right turns in step #1 of bronze.  Unlike so many places where you see poeple reach silver and still not be able to do a right turn.
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elisedance
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2009, 02:57:58 AM »

I suppose right handed people rule 'cause a natural turn is to the right Smiley
And all I can say to FA is 'Right On!'  Cause you are right - but I think everyone learns a natural in waltz but the reverse (not the unnatural curiously) can be omitted till much later. 

This is may not as strange as it first sounds.  The reason is because we always go round the floor in the same direction - anti-clockwise - and a natural turn (which takes you from the side back into the floor) is actually more useful.  The reverse turn (in standard) is used more for entries to more complex figures.
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2009, 03:14:00 AM »

In Europe Natural Turn and Reverse Turn are always introduced together (either in the same lesson or over two lessons following one another). This is because if the Turns are taught together then dancers feel they are equal. I have found many couples in the US having problems with the Natural Turn’s because it was not introduced early on in their dancing. It is actual more natural to do a Natural Turn if you are in the offset position that most dancers dance started doing in the 60’s and are still doing today.

Now this next part is my 2 cents worth and maybe nobody will agree with me other then my ex-dance partner and that is totally OK. It is important that you go out there doing what you believe is right. So listen to your teacher/coach and yourself and do what you think. I just had to say it as I know there are some dancers here trying to get out of the box.

I agree that many dancers do start with the Natural Turn. I will however say that my partner and I hardly ever did that. We actually often teach student to not dance the Natural Turn as the first step they dance. The Natural Turn can be a step that helps you make the next round but it can also be the step that pulls you down. It is important to always show what you are best at, if you are to do well in a competition. To dance a Natural Turn from almost dead stop and achieve full flight or swing takes a lot of skill. I have at time had to judge somebody not so well, because the first and only Natural Turn I saw, was not great. Shame but true.

It is true we do spend a lot of time dancing these basic steps. We use the “golden routines” to develop the skills; we are then to move over into the more difficult steps. We don’t just learn and practice these basic steps to them only. If that was the case then we shouldn’t dance anything else then the basic steps. It would make it easier on the judges if everybody danced the basic steps but it wouldn’t leave much for individual expression. So use the “golden routines” or basic steps and learn to do all the rules and principle in these simple steps. Then move the rule and principles over to the more intrigued steps and you should be on your way to great dancing.

Sorry for this long post.

DSV
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Edward Teller
elisedance
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2009, 03:28:02 AM »

thanks DSV.  The difficulty is the reason I started this topic.  Whether or not they should, most couples DO start with this and in syllabus levels there is not really much choice, so has to be conquered at least to the appropriate level. 

But your point is well made that one does not have to start with this.  Do you have any particular favorite starting steps - in paarticular ones that PDO members might be familiar with?
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2009, 03:42:43 AM »

thanks DSV.  The difficulty is the reason I started this topic.  Whether or not they should, most couples DO start with this and in syllabus levels there is not really much choice, so has to be conquered at least to the appropriate level. 

I actually never have a syllabus couple start with a 1-3 of a Natural Turn as they can’t get the flight and therefore the swing on the Natural Turn that is needed to do it nice. Again that is my opinion and I totally accept that others don’t agree with me.

Quote
But your point is well made that one does not have to start with this.  Do you have any particular favorite starting steps - in particular ones that PDO members might be familiar with?

I think it is important to develop some body flight before going to the 1-3 of a Natural Turn. One combination that would service this need would be to start with a Whisk, then Chasse and then do the 1-3 of a Natural Turn. Now you got started with a step that doesn’t require a lot of flight and then build up the flight with the Chasse and is in full flight ready to really swing through the 1-3 of a Natural Turn. There are many other combinations that is possible but this is an easy and simple way (that I think most PDO member would know) to develop the flight needed for the possibility of having a great 1-3 of a Natural Turn.

DSV
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elisedance
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2009, 04:05:11 AM »

Excellent - I'm going to talk to DP about this on sunday... Smiley
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SwingWaltz
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2009, 06:05:55 AM »

What about the prep step. That's meant to prepare people for the natural turn right?
We've spent so much of our lesson on the prep step and natural turn. We almost start all our ballroom lessons with that step, coach would make some comments and/or adjustments, then we move on to what we are doing for the lesson. True, it is the first step of the first dance on the comp floor, and that's when judges start picking out couples they like by first impression....so I've been told.
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elisedance
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2009, 07:57:43 AM »

......other than the prep step the 1-3 of a natural turn is the first step danced

what did you think of DSV's comment?
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 12:34:45 PM »

What about the prep step. That's meant to prepare people for the natural turn right?

The Preparation Step is great and meant to help start the body flight so that the 1-3 of Natural Turn happens in flight. However many dancers don’t use the Preparation Step the right way. They get so into the technical aspect of the step that the never use the step what it was meant for and thereby use it to the fullest. I have actually found that if I get a student to do the "old fashioned" Preparation Step then they tends to do better.

If you are able to use the Preparation Step to the fullest, then dancing the 1-3 of a Natural Turn early on, could benefit you and help you make the next round. You will have to get guidance from your teacher/coach or even use a recording to check how it looks and if it is sellable to the judges.

All the best!

DSV
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Edward Teller
cornutt
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 01:05:16 PM »


I actually never have a syllabus couple start with a 1-3 of a Natural Turn as they can’t get the flight and therefore the swing on the Natural Turn that is needed to do it nice. Again that is my opinion and I totally accept that others don’t agree with me.


From what I've seen, in American style syllabus, nearly every routine that begins in closed frame begins with a reverse turn.  Maybe that's why. 
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etp777
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2009, 01:11:10 PM »

Pretty much, cornutt.  I know in ours, 1/2 both start with turn to left, 4 is just half box with RUAT, 3,5,6,8 start with twinkles, 9 is running steps, and think ten is another twinkle (can't remember 7).  Nothing starts with natural turn.  Course, can only speak for our syllabus.  Smiley

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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2009, 01:30:57 PM »


From what I've seen, in American style syllabus, nearly every routine that begins in closed frame begins with a reverse turn.  Maybe that's why.  


Sorry but Reverse Turn is not really any better as you also need flight to do that step really well. Mind you if you are doing social dancing then a great swing and body flight is not necessary for it to feel good. American style does cater more to social dancing then the International style. In social style big swing and body flight are not a requirement in order to dance. It is more important to be comfortable in social style than it is to look good. If the two happen to come together then great but the look is not important as they are not judged on what they do.

To start with anything that requires a big swing you need body flight. So the starting steps should always be step that in the syllabus are considered “starter” step or “speed up” steps.

Just my 2 cents worth.

DSV
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 01:34:00 PM by Dora-Satya Veda » Logged

"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2009, 04:35:56 PM »

Sorry to keep going and going on this one…..

There is one more issue about starting with 1-3 of a Natural Turn that most dancers don’t think about. How many times do you dance 1-3 of a Natural Turn inside partner? Most couples does it once maybe twice in the Waltz and maybe the same in the Quickstep. How many times do you dance 1-3 of a Natural Turn outside partner? I would guess more then twice. If this is the case then it doesn’t make sense to spend all you time to learn and dance a step well that you are only going to use once or maybe twice. We talked about being efficient on another thread. I think it is worth thinking about how to be more efficient if you want to become a good dancer relative fast. Spending lots of time working on a step that is used once or twice at maximum doesn’t make a lot of sense, if you are trying to get good within the next couple of decades.

Sorry for me shaking up the traditions here, but you do not get outstanding results fast by following the traditions of the average dancers.

DSV
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Edward Teller
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2009, 04:37:55 PM »

Right on.  I just wasted $gzillion on a useless step Shocked Grin
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