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Author Topic: 2nd again!  (Read 4279 times)
Lioness
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2009, 05:03:22 AM »

After our recent success at comps, our coaches were sure to mention: 'Some days you are the best couple out there. The better couples are not at the comp or sick, or something. There will be times when you are the best couple there, and there will also be times when there are better couples there for you to try and beat.'

Basically, maybe with all of these comps, the better couples have always been there.
a) wait till they move up a division
b) train like hell to get better than them
c) Make sure they aren't there on the day Wink (kidding) Tongue
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elisedance
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2009, 05:25:46 AM »

I've just found out how powerful "programming" can be.  Worth looking into SW.  Find out where your coaches ranked.
As long as its not programming of the judges Undecided - there must be some of that: if you meet the same couple often they may be iused to ranking them first and not look quite as closely as they might. 
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etp777
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2009, 09:49:09 AM »

That's jsut human nature though ED, and not something that can really be helped.  If you have some unknown couple and arunas and Katusha, and both dance identically, your subconcious is going to decide that a/k must have been a bit better, just because you know them, know how they dance, how they score, etc.  So you'll put a/k in first and other couple in second without any concious decision on it.
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elisedance
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2009, 10:13:29 AM »

Actually thats correct - if someone is an established champion and they dance equally to a challenger then I agree that the champion should be scored ahead.  A champion can have a mediocre day without loosing thier crown (I'm sure that happens all the time).  I think you agree that the problem arises when the challenger is actually better (of course its subjective) and the champion keeps on winning nonetheless...
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2009, 11:40:49 AM »

Changing your choreo, has quite a bit to do with programming.  I noticed that my routines had an "insurance policy" in there to make sure that I would lose. Basically we have put in hard elements into our choreo to make sure if a judge watches us during those sections we are guaranteed a loss. 

I agree that choreo can course you to place well or bad. It is important to show a consistency when dancing a comp. It is better to dance simple choreo that shows well then to dance difficult choreo that makes you look like you don’t know what you are doing. Do understand there are many different kinds of programming. If you are programmed to not do well it will show in different ways. With some programming you find ways to make yourself look bad. One of those ways this programming can show up is in the choreo.

Quote
All our coaches have told us that we have a very natural jive... when we dance basics and flicks.  However, recently, one visiting coach, a former pro Latin World Champion, was shocked to see that we only had about 6-seconds of flicks and basics in our routine.  The rest of the routine was not doing our natural abilities any justice.  Then he asked us who gave us the choreo.  We mentioned the name of the coach who gave us our jive choreo and this ex world champ went, "guess what!  That coach can't dance flicks or basics.  So your routine doesn't highlight anything you do naturally.  You're so much better than this choreo!". 

Yes, when choreo is created then it is important to look at what you do well and include that in all the choreo. That is why when you look at champions, they all have thing/steps/choreo that they do that are unique to them. You should be aware that some coaches forget to leave their ego at the door and give choreo to the couple/s that they (the coach) would feel good dancing without any concern to what the couple would look good dancing. If you have something that naturally you look good doing, absolutely highlight that and don’t be shy about it. As of right now judging is based on rewarding couples that are consistent and execute their choreo well. This may soon change if IDSF gets their way and judging will change from the format we have today. Think about it today the couples that do well are the couples that show really well. We don't really reward difficult choreo. If you are dancing difficult choreo and falling all over the place you will not get a high score. You can dance fairly basic stuff and if you do it well you can win without really dancing much out of syllabus (this has been seen many times over the years). Today judging is based on the quality of dancing and not on the quantity of dancing. So find the step/s that you are able to show good quality in and dance those.

Quote
At first it felt like we were taking the easy way out: instead of mastering the choreo and performing it well, it almost felt like we were "cheating" by changing our choreo to match our natural strengths.  However, we struck a healthy balance of trying to fix things and getting rid of things that didn't work.  The idea is to showcase your abilities, not your inabilities.  Getting rid of these elements will make dancing a pleasure and that in itself will show on your face and improve your performance.

I said this before there is not a score for quantity in the dancing right now. We are only looking at the quality of the execution and the consistency of the performance. If you want to do well then you need to conform to what is being judged. Make it easy for the judge to mark you well.

DSV


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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2009, 12:03:38 PM »

As long as its not programming of the judges Undecided - there must be some of that: if you meet the same couple often they may be iused to ranking them first and not look quite as closely as they might. 

We are all programmed to more or lesser degree. If you are aware of this fact you will be able to counter the programming that serves you the least benefits. There are so many different forms of programming that it might take a little time to identify the programming. At times the programming can be traced back many generations. If you are not getting what you want and it is as if there is sabotage going on, then it is most likely a programming that will have to be changed before you will see a different result. The earlier you detect a program the easier and faster you will be able to reprogram and get what it is you really want.

So yes, I would say the judges do get programmed. When a judge gets programmed about a couple’s placement we call that “putting the couple in a box” or “getting in the box”. This does happen all the time. That is why you should never go to a competition unless you have improved since last competition. Let’s say you compete and you have not visibly improved, it takes about 3 - 5 times for a judge to “put you in the box”. It will take that same judge about 6 – 8 times (and sometimes more) with radical improvements for you to get out of “the box”. Let’s say that judge judges 10 competitions a year. That will basically mean you can write that judge off  for the year as that judge will not look at you with new eyes until the year after. You just wasted a year with that judge. That is why you should always aim to never get put in “the box” in the first place.

Remember the judges are human and we are asked to give our opinion.

Many of the very best dancer/judges/coaches are very aware of this problem. It is the reason why my main teacher always told me to never watch the result/s as that would program me on a subconscious level. We are taught to always watch out for the programming that happens to us all the time.

DSV
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Ginger
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I see what you did there.


« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2009, 12:09:11 PM »

I would HATE to think that way!

You mean, because you're such an otherwise posiitive person by nature? Wink </JOKE>

No, some of the other ideas are pretty good- change ONE noticeable thing up, but keep what's good the same. It indicates conscience and initiative.
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elisedance
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2009, 01:10:22 PM »

Quote
.....That is why you should never go to a competition unless you have improved since last competition. Let’s say you compete and you have not visibly improved, it takes about 3 - 5 times for a judge to “put you in the box”. It will take that same judge about 6 – 8 times (and sometimes more) with radical improvements for you to get out of “the box”. Let’s say that judge judges 10 competitions a year. That will basically mean you can write that judge off  for the year as that judge will not look at you with new eyes until the year after. You just wasted a year with that judge. That is why you should always aim to never get put in “the box” in the first place.
DSV

that is so interesting - but we also need competition experience and the easiest experience is obviously the nearest comps - at which we see the same judges over and over.  I do think we are programmed both internally and externally so, given that we do have to see the same judges over and over is there perhaps a trick to get them to reevaluate us?  
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 10:03:01 PM by QPO » Logged

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Some guy
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2009, 01:22:43 PM »

Good question Elise.  One trick I think would be to improve yourself so much that there's a huge gap between you and the others in the category.  That way the judges  don't have a choice but to mark you 1st.  I know, it might be wishful thinking but striving for that will only have a positive impact on our dancing.  It doesn't have to be an overall improvement: you could improve one aspect.  For example, in Standard, if you improve your volume of movement so much that the other couples look like they're hardly moving, that would get you noticed.   
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Ginger
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I see what you did there.


« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2009, 02:16:09 PM »

.....That is why you should never go to a competition unless you have improved since last competition.

I wish some people we know would understand this. They keep sinking thousands of dollars into competing, and NEVER learn anything new in their instruction, and NEVER EVER improve. EVERYONE can see it and have so gently tried to support and encourage them- and get them AWAY from the toxic learning environment they're in- and they just won't do it.

We're not doing it to feel superior or smug or condescending... we just hate to see them feel so downtrodden and wonder why everyone's zooming light years ahead of them and they're still in The Box.. step, that is. It's everyone's fault but theirs, though. Sometimes, you just have to let people sink. If you don't, they will take you down with them.
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Rugby
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2009, 08:42:09 PM »

.....That is why you should never go to a competition unless you have improved since last competition. Let’s say you compete and you have not visibly improved, it takes about 3 - 5 times for a judge to “put you in the box”. It will take that same judge about 6 – 8 times (and sometimes more) with radical improvements for you to get out of “the box”. Let’s say that judge judges 10 competitions a year. That will basically mean you can write that judge off  for the year as that judge will not look at you with new eyes until the year after. You just wasted a year with that judge. That is why you should always aim to never get put in “the box” in the first place.
DSV

So true and this is what I try and tell people.  Two couples at Kingston got burned for this reason.  They are consistently in last place.  At Kingston they danced the best they ever have but I am sure the judges never bothered giving them more than a glance since they already had a preconceived idea of what the couple was capable of, and there were too many others to have to watch that they didn't know.  It will probably take a few comps for the judges to notice that they have improved but in the meanwhile the two couples will feel like they have improved for nothing or that the improvements are not working. 

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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
elisedance
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2009, 08:45:05 PM »

[I hope everyone realizes that that was DSV's post not mine - its a bit confusing even though her initials are there]
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elisedance
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2009, 08:47:29 PM »

.....That is why you should never go to a competition unless you have improved since last competition. Let’s say you compete and you have not visibly improved, it takes about 3 - 5 times for a judge to “put you in the box”. It will take that same judge about 6 – 8 times (and sometimes more) with radical improvements for you to get out of “the box”. Let’s say that judge judges 10 competitions a year. That will basically mean you can write that judge off  for the year as that judge will not look at you with new eyes until the year after. You just wasted a year with that judge. That is why you should always aim to never get put in “the box” in the first place.
DSV

So true and this is what I try and tell people.  Two couples at Kingston got burned for this reason.  They are consistently in last place.  At Kingston they danced the best they ever have but I am sure the judges never bothered giving them more than a glance since they already had a preconceived idea of what the couple was capable of, and there were too many others to have to watch that they didn't know.  It will probably take a few comps for the judges to notice that they have improved but in the meanwhile the two couples will feel like they have improved for nothing or that the improvements are not working. 

But the judges in Kingston were from all over the world R - surely they can't remember your couple ? Smiley  However, DSV's point holds with respect to how the couple sees themselves - if their attitude has not changed, that is if they think they are losers maybe that is coming through despite their improvement ....
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Rugby
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2009, 08:59:50 PM »

They got Recalls from the foreign judges and yet in all dances in both categories not one from any of the Canadians.  I know this sounds bad but I can understand why they didn't look.  If you have not shown the judges anything to judge in the past then they won't expect anything from you.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 09:01:50 PM by Rugby » Logged

Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
elisedance
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2009, 09:09:44 PM »

Ah.  Now I understand.  Which is why we also like to travel to dance Wink  But maybe with a better attitude and higher self-appreciation one can turn things around.  I know how it is when I look at a dance floor and the couples have just come out - some of them just look like winners - I started a topic on that not long ago on how to pull it off.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
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