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Author Topic: Timing of the Lead  (Read 3373 times)
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2009, 02:07:50 AM »


My two cents: when you dance yourself, the lady becomes an extension of your own body.  For example, when you walk, you don't move each leg deliberately.  If you do that, walking fast or jogging would be quite difficult.  However, if you initiate the thought of walking, your legs begin to move.  Dancing becomes like that when you dance yourself.  As soon as you think of your next step and your own body starts to move, the lady starts to move also.  It's almost like my lady is "thought controlled".  As if dancing weren't addictive enough, I have yet to get used to the feeling of how awesome (and SO MUCH less physical and tiring) it is to dance via thought-control!


And giving yourself to that thought control is for me the ultimate experience of ballroom.  Its probably the reason one can not do anything other than dance (I can't think of people or work or anything other than dancing).  When you first start dancing, neither partner does it.  You rely instead on physical clues and signs (some quite brutal).  As you get better the woman starts to cede the control and listen for the thought.  She does it first through firm physical contact (there was a time I had to feel my partner's chest to follow) and then gradually you need less and less (I've still got a ways to go but slowly getting there).  I think the real magical part is when the man starts to do the same thing - he starts to listen to the woman's thoughts and dances to her 'lead'.  At that point the input to the dancing - where the edges of the floor are, other couples, which step etc are all there but they are very minor to the 'conversational relationship' between the two dancers. 

I have felt this, but I want to live it.
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Some guy
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2009, 02:44:20 AM »

I feel the same way Elise.  I always felt that once I get to a certain point I'll be ready to say, "been there!  Done that!", and quit.  However, the more I learn, the more addictive this gets.  I want to live it too!  It almost elevates you to levels that physics and words can't explain.  I mean, I don't know if physics and science can explain how I feel compelled to "follow" my partner when she uses her second active center to "invite me" to take a step forward.  She can take me around the whole ballroom without even touching me only using her second active center.  Similarly, using her first and third active centers she can make me step back... or even run back depending on how fast she comes towards me.  The biggest illusion in dancing appears to be the fact that the man is in a dominant position.  The more I learn, the more I seem like the woman is only giving up certain aspects of control to give the man the illusion of control.  The more answers I find, the more mind boggling it all becomes!  Huh  
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 02:51:29 AM by Some guy » Logged
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2009, 04:14:34 AM »

The more I learn, the more I seem like the woman is only giving up certain aspects of control to give the man the illusion of control.   

You are learning the secrets of life too, grasshopper Grin
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

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cornutt
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2009, 10:07:49 AM »

The more I learn, the more I seem like the woman is only giving up certain aspects of control to give the man the illusion of control.   

You are learning the secrets of life too, grasshopper Grin

 Wink Cheesy
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2009, 02:34:57 PM »

I always felt that once I get to a certain point I'll be ready to say, "been there!  Done that!", and quit.  However, the more I learn, the more addictive this gets.  I want to live it too!  It almost elevates you to levels that physics and words can't explain.  I mean, I don't know if physics and science can explain how I feel compelled to "follow" my partner when she uses her second active center to "invite me" to take a step forward.  She can take me around the whole ballroom without even touching me only using her second active center.  Similarly, using her first and third active centers she can make me step back... or even run back depending on how fast she comes towards me.  The biggest illusion in dancing appears to be the fact that the man is in a dominant position.  The more I learn, the more I seem like the woman is only giving up certain aspects of control to give the man the illusion of control.  The more answers I find, the more mind boggling it all becomes!  Huh 

So you thought you would get done with it at some time. Roll Eyes Well, dancing is like life you may change direction but you are always move somewhere and doing something. When you do get on the beautiful path of "making know the unknown" then it sure is very addictive. Sure sounds like you are beginning to understand and deal with the quantum field of possibilities. Well done. Have fun exploring.

Ah, you are now learning the true power of a female. Wink A great female makes the man think and believe he is in control, that he is the head of the family or the King of his kingdom. If you look back at world class dancers all the females have always been very powerful (female power not masculine power). The history of the world show many such powerful women. Many wars have been fought because of women using this power and maybe not with the best of intent. Top dancers are trained to use the female power to make the movement happen. This action of taking care of the man and make him feel in control is called “henning” or to “hen” the man. We are also taught to never take down a man or make him feel powerless. It is a very fine balance of being powerful and at the same time make the man feel powerful and in control at all times. It sure is a great illusion of control.  Wink Grin

DSV
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2009, 02:39:30 PM »

Let me just say this. The lead is a combination of many different actions done to the man himself. My teacher always said, to not do anything to the lady but to do it to yourself and let the lady respond to the actions done. As for the time of the lead……it should be done early and often earlier then what is commonly thought.

DSV
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Edward Teller
MusicChica
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2009, 03:21:41 PM »

Ah, you are now learning the true power of a female. Wink A great female makes the man think and believe he is in control, that he is the head of the family or the King of his kingdom. If you look back at world class dancers all the females have always been very powerful (female power not masculine power). The history of the world show many such powerful women. Many wars have been fought because of women using this power and maybe not with the best of intent. Top dancers are trained to use the female power to make the movement happen. This action of taking care of the man and make him feel in control is called “henning” or to “hen” the man. We are also taught to never take down a man or make him feel powerless. It is a very fine balance of being powerful and at the same time make the man feel powerful and in control at all times. It sure is a great illusion of control.  Wink Grin

DSV

Reminds me of that line in My Big Fat Greek Wedding: "The man may be the head of the household, but the woman is the neck.  And she can turn the head any way she wants."  I always loved that. Smiley
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2009, 03:24:06 PM »

Reminds me of that line in My Big Fat Greek Wedding: "The man may be the head of the household, but the woman is the neck.  And she can turn the head any way she wants."  I always loved that. Smiley

My mother used to say it like that. Yes, that is the idea.   Wink
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
TangoDancer
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« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2009, 03:51:15 AM »

I feel the same way Elise.  I always felt that once I get to a certain point I'll be ready to say, "been there!  Done that!", and quit.  However, the more I learn, the more addictive this gets.  I want to live it too!  It almost elevates you to levels that physics and words can't explain.  I mean, I don't know if physics and science can explain how I feel compelled to "follow" my partner when she uses her second active center to "invite me" to take a step forward.  She can take me around the whole ballroom without even touching me only using her second active center.  Similarly, using her first and third active centers she can make me step back... or even run back depending on how fast she comes towards me.  The biggest illusion in dancing appears to be the fact that the man is in a dominant position.  The more I learn, the more I seem like the woman is only giving up certain aspects of control to give the man the illusion of control.  The more answers I find, the more mind boggling it all becomes!  Huh  

Where the heck were you when I was getting beaten up trying to explain this to a...ahem...nother forum?  Grin
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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
TangoDancer
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« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2009, 03:53:17 AM »

Let me just say this. The lead is a combination of many different actions done to the man himself. My teacher always said, to not do anything to the lady but to do it to yourself and let the lady respond to the actions done. As for the time of the lead……it should be done early and often earlier then what is commonly thought.

DSV

Exactly. I was telling a student today to dance with the lady - not for her; to lead himself, and allow the lady to follow.
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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
elisedance
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Posts: 35022


ee


« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2009, 05:06:37 AM »

Let me just say this. The lead is a combination of many different actions done to the man himself. My teacher always said, to not do anything to the lady but to do it to yourself and let the lady respond to the actions done. As for the time of the lead……it should be done early and often earlier then what is commonly thought.

DSV

Exactly. I was telling a student today to dance with the lady - not for her; to lead himself, and allow the lady to follow.

This is so important - and should go on the 'wish they had taught this at the beginning' topic.  Interestingly, if the woman tries to help the man dance she is immediatel reprimanded but the othe rway round is usually ignored - but its just as detrimental to the woman.  When the man goes out of his way to put me in the right place he confuses me since I can no longer feel the correct lead - its gone.  At the moment many of our lessons center on DP doing his step and ignoring me so that I can do mine.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2009, 11:11:42 AM »

Where the heck were you when I was getting beaten up trying to explain this to a...ahem...nother forum?  Grin
I was hiding in the foxhole paralyzed by fear!

Actually, this is something I just learned a few weeks ago.  It wasn't easy coming to that conclusion.  I used to take a certain pride in the fact that the dancefloor was the one place in life that I truly wore the proverbial pants in the relationship.  Bubble busted!
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2009, 08:14:02 AM »

Roll Eyes
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

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cornutt
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2009, 09:50:25 AM »

This is so important - and should go on the 'wish they had taught this at the beginning' topic.  Interestingly, if the woman tries to help the man dance she is immediatel reprimanded but the othe rway round is usually ignored - but its just as detrimental to the woman. 

Depends on what kind of help it is...  Wink  Seriously, you are absolutely right, and it doesn't do the lead much good either.  Do you know how tiring it is to have to make your partner move all around the floor?  The muscles fatigue so rapidly that after about 30 seconds, muscle tone and precision of movement is gone.  The temptation, and even with intermediate-level leads it often happens unconsciously, is to start shifting posture and frame around to bring different muscles into play, and then you're in the diamond lane on the Bad Habits Expressway. 
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2009, 10:32:52 AM »

I think the problem comes down to one thing: the word lead.  this is drummed into dancers without explaining what its limits are.  Thus, men think that they have to LEAD - that is the pathetic woman will not and can not do anything if not instructed by the man.  this fits so easily into stereotypes its almost impossible to negate.

We should start a movement to change these term - needs a new topic!
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
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