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Author Topic: dancesport series  (Read 4855 times)
elisedance
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« on: September 07, 2009, 06:35:12 PM »

On the face of it a great idea - to provide a way for pro/am competitors to determine their placement - much as pros and ams can on dancesport info.  But does it really work that way?  Or was it even intended to?

It actually has two quite separate scoring systems:
The first is a point accumulation based on competitions entered and the outcome.  However, in addition it has 'bonus points' for the number of entries.  Its hard to avoid the cynical view that this system is more about money spent and less about actual performance relative to peers.

The second does not suffer from that 'reservation' and is a point system with the goal that the competitors with the most points will be able to represent their region (the US is split into 6 regions, Canada is a seventh) at OSB.  While not without its difficulties this scoring system has (in my opinion) a closer connection to actual achievement and ability.  Unfortunately, it is limited by a rather simplified accumulation system.  Thus, winning a small competition with 3 entries will give you the same points (30) as one with a final and if there are 18 entries - with a quarter final - you only get 12 more points. 

More to follow...
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ttd
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2009, 04:26:31 PM »

The scorecard is fun to play with, as in - keep track of your own standings, but I don't think there's any point in taking it seriously.

Besides, the purpose of the series (and other smaller ones), isn't really to keep track of anything. AFAIK, it originated when  several competitions teamed up into a series to support one another.
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elisedance
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2009, 05:41:53 PM »

so do you think a real scoring/ranking system could or should be developed?
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ttd
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2009, 10:35:12 PM »

No, I don't think it's worth the effort. The field is too fragmented, placings depend greatly on who shows up where, and even with the superbowl  events, the person's score still depends on how many events you do per year (or in other words, you can spend your way to the top by doing a lot of competitions). In a way, we already have something that comes close to national rankings - those are the results from major competitions with large fields, which serious competitors try to do, such as OSB, or USDSC.
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elisedance
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 03:51:01 AM »

But isnt that worse for pros and AMs ?  They are competing all over the world but there are still ranking systems (ISTD, dancesportinfo).  Pro/ams are not exclusively but very much mostly in NA and the serious ones do a lot of competitions.  I don't see why a dancesportinfo system couldn't be started for them too - really very little difference from the pros.

In the dancesportinfo system there are hundreds of competitors that only do one or two comps a year, the system still works.
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2009, 09:39:00 PM »

I thought some about this and other threads on the subject, and  it sounds to me like you are really advocating for some sort of "external recognition" (for the lack of better term) system for pro-am competitors. And I just fail to see a value in it, both as a competitor and as a spectator. (For the record, I don't follow dancesport info results closely, either). Why do you want this kind of recognition, anyway?
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elisedance
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2009, 09:45:27 PM »

I don't know, the same as the pros and the ams I guess.  why should it be any different?  Why should we not recognize the dancers who are best at doing what we aspire to do?

Also, I think there is still a 'second class' aspect to pro-am competitors - even a derision.  I think recognition as achievers woudl do a lot to dispell that.

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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2009, 12:56:50 PM »

I don't know, the same as the pros and the ams I guess.  why should it be any different?  Why should we not recognize the dancers who are best at doing what we aspire to do?

Also, I think there is still a 'second class' aspect to pro-am competitors - even a derision.  I think recognition as achievers woudl do a lot to dispell that.


I'm not sure, the demand "recognize us, we're important" doesn't quite sound right in this context, and actually alienates people. JMO.
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elisedance
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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2009, 02:32:52 PM »

The way you put that I agree.  By the way, your quote marks could be misunderstood as if that is what I wrote.  I did not.  Your phrase "recognize us, we're important" has an arrogance to it that I do not think was in my message or intent.
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elisedance
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2009, 03:52:07 PM »

OSB is commonly regarded (and calls itself) the world championship - but there are others with the name too.

but I think thats the point - to get world events things have to change both in how we see ourselves and how others see us.  The questions are whether we want that to happen and whether it is even possible.

Perhaps one of these days they will have a pro-am 'so you think you can dance' or something like Smiley
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Medira
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 04:00:23 PM »

I think that pro/am needs to establish standards before it can gain credibility.  There isn't standard progression or leveling, really.  It's all at the discretion of each individual pro.
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ttd
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 05:01:05 PM »

The way you put that I agree.  By the way, your quote marks could be misunderstood as if that is what I wrote.  I did not.  Your phrase "recognize us, we're important" has an arrogance to it that I do not think was in my message or intent.

Sorry, if it can be misunderstood. I worded that crudely on purpose, too. But not matter how nicely worded, your message still comes across as a demand for general recognition of some sort. As others have pointed out, there are too many inherent flaws in the system itself (as opposed to the other two circuits, where the playing field is arguably more level), and adding ratings to it just highlights them. So why bother?
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cornutt
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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2009, 10:00:32 PM »

Sorry, if it can be misunderstood. I worded that crudely on purpose, too. But not matter how nicely worded, your message still comes across as a demand for general recognition of some sort.

Well, all performers like to get recognition.  And if we assume that the pro-am dancing world would like to make a buck or two while they are at it (admittedly a rather fanciful assumption  Cheesy), recognition is one of the keys to that. 

Hmm... let me draw a comparison with something I know about: auto racing.  It's common practice in racing series to have a points system that leads to an end-of-season championship.  In pro series there's usually a rather large pot of gold at the end of that rainbow, but even in amateur series you find points systems.  Why?  It's a method of keeping up the interest of the competitors and fans.  Rather than a series of disconnected events, the whole season becomes an event in itself.  It gives everyone something to think about between events, in addition to providing a way of comparing a competitor's year-to-year performance. 

And thinking more about the issue of "who's your pro": I'm not convinced that pro/am is really unique in that regard.  It's not like am/ams don't ever incur significant expenses in pursuit of better partners, such as moving cross country or even to another country.  And am couples can spend a lot of money on top-drawer coaching.  The auto racers have a name for this: "cubic dollars", i.e., spending money on better equipment or more practice time or more shop employees, in order to become more competitive. 

The recognition should be of value to the pros: A pro who dances with a championship-winning am partner is a pro who is set to make more money.  Maybe it's time that pro/am abandoned the fiction that only the am is being judged; admit that a couple is a couple, whether it's am/am or pro/am, and judge on that basis. 

As for how the points system should work: It definitely should not be possible for someone to buy points by entering a lot of heats at a comp.  Every comp should have one heat or one set of heats that are designated as the points-paying championship heats for that comp.  I don't have a good feel yet for the exact schedule of how points should be paid.  It makes sense on the surface for comps with more entries to pay more points, but that makes it dicey for competitors since, when they enter an event, they don't know in advance how many couples will be dancing.  That could open the door to comp-rigging -- picture a couple who enters a small event, and then pays several other lesser-ability couples to enter at the deadline just to pad the field.  Also, it would give a big advantage to a couple who wins a big comp like OSB.  (Going back to the auto racing analogy again, it would be kind of like a period in the 1930s when the U.S. national championship had the Indianapolis 500 and several small events; since the events paid points according to the length of the race, whoever won Indy was pretty much guaranteed to win the championship.)  There's always a debate in racing about whether winning an event should pay a whole lot more points than finishing second, or whether it should be a more graduated scale to reward consistency.  Given the vagaries that currently exist in pro/am judging, the graduated scale would probably work better for the short term.
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elisedance
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2009, 10:08:59 PM »

You put that better than I can so I will, for once, be quiet Cheesy
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ttd
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 01:38:11 PM »

I think there are two kinds of recognition, really. The first is when you get people you don't even know come up to you and tell you how they enjoyed watching you dance. The second is when you have your name listed somewhere among the top dancers (i.e. in Dancebeat), or have some national ranking attached to it. I really care about the first kind, enjoy receiving it, and it really makes my day when I do get that (and I do get it when I compete or perform). As for the other kind, it doesn't do much for me.
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