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Author Topic: Advanced pro-am - do they have progress-added value?  (Read 4293 times)
ttd
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« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 11:02:51 AM »

You aren't interested if the pro/am that won OSB for three years running is at your comp? 
Not really, I don't think I know her personally. When it comes to watching pro-am events, for me it is definitely more about personal connection to people in them. I do try to watch events with our retired national champions in them, though. I really enjoyed watching them when they competed in pro smooth and I really enjoy watching both of them dance with their students, and I have learned a lot from just watching them, especially her.
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etp777
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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 11:40:35 AM »

I wonder if the friend thing was the case even in Nevada.  No, I didn't know anyone in those events, but everyone else at my table was cheering for a woman in both events that some or all of them knew.  So still had the feeling of watching and being there for a friend.  I know other times I've watched proam, and even if they're great, less of a concern for me than pro by a long shot.  With proper marketing, that might change, but I don't think so, for ME.  I have too many couples to keep track of already.  Smiley
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elisedance
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« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 11:55:41 AM »

So I think this is a marketing opportunity - but it appears I may be alone.  Mmm.  Marketing to one, I don't think that works...
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etp777
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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 11:57:33 AM »

I don't think the feedback of three people exactly qualifies as a statistical universe.  Smiley  Don't give up yet.
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ttd
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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2009, 01:54:19 PM »

I wonder if the friend thing was the case even in Nevada.  No, I didn't know anyone in those events, but everyone else at my table was cheering for a woman in both events that some or all of them knew.  So still had the feeling of watching and being there for a friend.  I know other times I've watched proam, and even if they're great, less of a concern for me than pro by a long shot.  With proper marketing, that might change, but I don't think so, for ME.  I have too many couples to keep track of already.  Smiley

Who'd be doing the marketing, though? I don't think it would be event organizers, because it won't bring a lot of additional income from the event, as far as I can tell. The people it has to be marketed to are not the other competitors, because they a) either already have a package with tickets to all sessions (so there's nothing else to be gained from them) b) not on the package, but will go watch the evening session to see the pro events (no need to market to them). To gain more income from the event it has to be marketed to locals who are not competing or maybe even not dancing, but still might come and watch. People who don't compete usually have no idea what pro-am is, I tried to explain it to people enough times to know that. For them any dancing above basic bronze social looks professional.

So my POV still stands - the only added value is to the pro half of the couple in form of the opportunity to show off their work. How they work it out with the student is between the two of them.
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Medira
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2009, 02:38:35 PM »

Heh, I actually enjoy watching top proamers, but won't go to see them except for friends, as mentioned. 
I'm in a similar boat as etp.  If I'm at a comp watching, it's because I'm there to cheer on friends, or to watch the top pro and sometimes rising star competitors.  Angling with advertising that the top pros are going to be there with some of their top students doesn't really do much for me because I'm already decided on who I'm going to the comp to see.
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elisedance
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2009, 04:49:57 PM »

Uphill battle here eh? 

Marketing?  someone like Sam S.  He's basically made OSB one of the top comps in NA on pro/am (at least its a very large factor) - thats what brings in the large audience for his events and vendors (in addition to money of course).  I can't help but have the feeling at OSB that the pro/am events are really there to make the 'real' ones possible.  He just has to take the step of recognizing the elite pro/am dancers themselves (no, one evening courtesy dance does not cut it) to make them a real part of the comp. 

 
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ttd
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2009, 10:02:32 PM »

Uphill battle here eh? 

Marketing?  someone like Sam S.  He's basically made OSB one of the top comps in NA on pro/am (at least its a very large factor) - thats what brings in the large audience for his events and vendors (in addition to money of course).  I can't help but have the feeling at OSB that the pro/am events are really there to make the 'real' ones possible.  He just has to take the step of recognizing the elite pro/am dancers themselves (no, one evening courtesy dance does not cut it) to make them a real part of the comp. 

 

I think you have it a bit backwards. It's not the high-level pro-am dancers who make the rest of OSB and any other pro-am competition possible, it's the lower-level ones. They represent the bottom of the pyramid. It's the bottom of the pyramid which has to be large enough to support the top in form of evening sessions with the top dancers, pro-am, am-am or pro-pro. And so going back to the marketing perspective, the event has to be worth it for the bottom of the pyramid. So anything that can sweeten THEIR deal is good marketing.

From the anecdotal evidence we have gathered so far, the fact that the top pro-am dancers will be there does nothing for that group. I can think of a number of things that do make a comp more attractive to go to but that's not one of them, sorry. Your logic may have worked if we were talking about an entire competition solely for high-level dancers and which encompassed high-level pro-am (and thus, such event would rely on dancers who are not skilled enough to enter it to be the audience), but there is no such thing, AFAIK.
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elisedance
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2009, 10:14:43 PM »

I didn't say that the top dancers made the most money - not at all - I'm talking about creating a pro/am competition market not about who was spending the most money - of course its the lower level ones - there are much more heats there and dancers often do tens of heats whereas the schollarshp ones may only do 5 or so (the minimum necessary. 

I agree with what you are all saying - the reason people go is really not to do with pro/am as a sport at al.  to put it in a nutshell, thats basically what I am asking:  is it possible, or even worth while, to make pro/am into a sport (where there are spectators that care about the outcome of more than their friends/teachers etc) as apart from a passtime.

I find it much more fun to watch a competition where I am aware of who is the current leader and who is challanging - isn't that what makes tennis or football interesting?  The champion going against the challenger?  As I compete more I am getting to know the pro/am couiples and starting to understand why one wins more than another.  And yes, it really is about the dancing.  If I can get interested I suspect so can others but the way things are set up now its rather hard to follow who is in the lead and who is challenging.  The dancesport series was a good attempt but its all rather confusing and not very accurate, judging as it does more by how many comps you enter than how you do.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

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ttd
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2009, 11:01:58 PM »

I don't think it really matters who is on the top and who is the main challenger. I sometimes try to place the couples when I am watching, and the more I watch, the better my guesses agree with the actual results, but I do not feel the need to know their previous rankings.

You can't make top pro-am into a spectator sport if it is a part of an all-levels-inclusive event. It is the "watching vs. doing" thing. People would go to the event to participate, and they might go watch as an added bonus. An event which has only open-level pro-am competitors would be a true test if pro-am dancesport can turn from "passtime" into a "sport" by your definition of these.

And in a way, dancesport hasn't really become a true spectator sport as a whole: how many people who have never done ballroom still watch it? and how many people who have never played football still watch it?
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elisedance
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2009, 04:07:36 AM »


And in a way, dancesport hasn't really become a true spectator sport as a whole: how many people who have never done ballroom still watch it? and how many people who have never played football still watch it?

I don't know the answers to either of them - but I'm not sure why they are relevant.  There must be many people watch (american) football unless they have played it - almost every woman for starters.  The current or past participants of any sport are the best candidate spectator/boosters.  Sure, thats the set that would be interested in the competetive sports aspect.  For pro/am the market for sports interest surely is other pro/amers.

It would be interesting to see what the ratios of competitor to 'spectator' the hit ratios show at, say, dancesportinfo. 
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
ttd
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2009, 01:52:52 PM »


And in a way, dancesport hasn't really become a true spectator sport as a whole: how many people who have never done ballroom still watch it? and how many people who have never played football still watch it?

I don't know the answers to either of them - but I'm not sure why they are relevant.  There must be many people watch (american) football unless they have played it - almost every woman for starters.  The current or past participants of any sport are the best candidate spectator/boosters.  Sure, thats the set that would be interested in the competetive sports aspect.  For pro/am the market for sports interest surely is other pro/amers.

It would be interesting to see what the ratios of competitor to 'spectator' the hit ratios show at, say, dancesportinfo. 

I think it is relevant because you cannot create a sufficiently big following audience to make something into a spectator sport, worth promoting as such (and until something is worth promoting as a purely spectating opportunity, there is no point of even talking about bigger perks to top participants), out of people who compete in it themselves, albeit on the lower level. You think there is a possibility, I don't. Why - because I think the primary goal for competitors is still to do it themselves, and they would prefer to do that, rather than keep track of someone else's results.

I think we just have to agree to disagree on this.
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etp777
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2009, 01:56:14 PM »

I will definitely cheer for top female rhythm and second (or top, depending on who you ask) male smooth proam competitors, but again, it's because I know them.  so as my last input on this thread, go Ryan and natalka come November in Ohio!  Smiley
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elisedance
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2009, 02:24:51 PM »

bye! Smiley

Go Ryan and Natalka too -
(just don't go better than me OK Cheesy)

I'm definitely a Ryan fan (he's a sweetie too) - I don't think I've seen Natalka dance, least didn't know it. 

Oh, and go Beverly Moore while we are at it... Now there I am a fan Wink
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
etp777
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2009, 02:28:37 PM »

I have not seen eithe rof htem dance yet, just talked to them online.  But will see them in November.  Smiley  Least, hopefully, still waiting for confirmation that Sam (or rather, whoever's helping) got my payment and my tickets will be waiting for me.  Smiley

They're both good people though.
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