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elisedance
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« on: August 01, 2009, 06:33:36 AM »

This came up on the 'ivan the terrible' coach topic.  The pro you dance with what are they?  Answering it is more difficult I think than it might seem - partly, however, because the terms are difficult to define.

To me:

A teacher is a person that has knowledge and puts effort into transferring that knowledge to someone else.
A coach has (at least) two meanings in dance.  
  A. The first is basically a mentor - a person with significant experience that can look to the bigger picture of your dancing.  
  B. The second (and more common) meaning is a third party - a teacher's teacher if you like.  Or at least a second pro that teaches you with your regular (comepetition) pro.
A partner is a person that you dance regularly with outside the studio.  In dancesport (and certainly for pro/am) its also someone that you compete with.

By those criteria my pro is my teacher, my coach (A) and also my partner, but not my coach (B) (except, I suppose, when he looks at me in the mirror or on a tape of our competition). 

  
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 07:57:44 AM by elisedance » Logged

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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2009, 12:17:00 PM »

This is how the definition on Teacher/Coach and Partner as it is described in many European countries.  

Teacher:  They have often competed to the highest level and received numerous awards for their accomplishments. They have trained to the highest level of expertise possible in their field. They have also been examined to one of the highest level in their field. They are often referred to as “experts” or holding doctorate degrees in their field. To be a teacher is the highest level of achievement possible of the field.

(You are allowed to put “Teacher” on your business stationary but the use of the word “coach” is not allowed).

(In most European countries you are not allowed to put the word “teacher” unless you are certified as such (government rule). Most European countries has now develop a 3 - 5 year education program to certify teachers and so that they are able to call themselves “teacher/s”. They must hold at least 10 years of experience in their sport to get fully certified. In some contries you are not allowed to open a dance school unless you are certified as a teacher as a way to do some quality control.)


Coach: They are trained for a short time for the most part a maximum of 1 – 3 year. They have been examined to the 1st or/and 2nd level. They are there to re-enforce the information and exercises that the teacher taught and prescribed. They are there for the daily training of the sports person. They are not trained to give technical advice or information. Their main purpose is to help/support and encourage the sports person to stay focused and on target. (….to wipe the tears and “asset” when needed (sorry my comment) Wink Tongue)

(You are allowed to put “Coach” on your business stationary but use of the word “Teacher” is not allowed).

It is possible to have both the Teachers’ and the Coaches’ exam and you will then be able to use both titles on the business stationary. The word “Teacher” must however appear first as that is the higher education.

Partner/s: Is normally two people that have joint forces to compete in a joint venture.


I know that all my teachers in England would have been very offended if I had called them “coach/es”. I remember one time hearing a student calling my main teacher for “coach”. I remember all of us regular students (of the studio) bowing our heads and thinking “ohhhh dear”. My teacher proceeded to tell him that, he was much more educated then what a coach was and that it was very disrespectful to call any of the teachers in the studio for a “coach”.

Dora-Satya Veda

Sorry for yet another really long post Tongue
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 12:52:01 PM by Dora-Satya Veda » Logged

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skipper
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2009, 03:33:39 PM »

As a pro-am student I struggle with the idea of my teacher being a partner. In my mind, partners are working cooperativly together. Each one contributing to a partnership.
As a student, what can I possibly bring to a partnership? I certainly have nothing to teach---I am always taking.
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emeralddancer
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2009, 03:45:29 PM »

Skipper I too am a pro-am student and at first I struggled with the same concept. However. My "pro" is my partner. Yes he teaches me, coaches me, etc ... however I bring much to this "partnership", not only my willingness and desire to learn, but my determination, my ideas, etc ... We as students give as equally as our teachers. (maybe not in the beginning) but we do end up teaching in  a way ourselves. You may be surprised at what you do for your teacher. PLUS it becomes a partnership when we "train", "practice" and compete. We are equally working towards a common goal together.

I can say and DSV please correct me if I am wrong, many of the "pros" I have spoken to (well the ones that are not arrogant) all say they learn from their students.
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2009, 06:00:45 PM »

......many of the "pros" I have spoken to (well the ones that are not arrogant) all say they learn from their students.

Yes and sometimes we learn what not to do, hehee........sorry EM, couldn't help it. Tongue  Wink Cheesy Grin
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emeralddancer
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2009, 09:45:38 PM »

Smartie DSV!

BUT that being said ... you are very right. AND it is the same in the regular partnerships as well. LOL Wink Grin
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elisedance
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2009, 11:55:35 PM »

As a pro-am student I struggle with the idea of my teacher being a partner. In my mind, partners are working cooperativly together. Each one contributing to a partnership.
As a student, what can I possibly bring to a partnership? I certainly have nothing to teach---I am always taking.

what you bring is that your pro would look pretty stupid dancing by himself!  No partnership is completely equal and I am sure that many pro couples one or other is a far better dancer - but they are still partnerships.  To dance with someone you have to have some level of partnership, it just won't work otherwise (thats why we call it partner dancing Wink

Besides, its different taking a lesson than competing.  When you go out with your pro you you both have your jobs to do and must do them well to do well in jour heat.  Look at it this way: could your pro dance equally well with any person at your level?  The difference, the reason he dances better with you is because you have worked on the dancing together - sure learning is one way, but actually dancing is nonetheless a partnership (IMO, I hasten to add).
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 11:55:05 AM »

Thanks for your explanation of the European educational system, DSV.  I think it sounds like a great idea and I wonder how different the studios in NA would be in we followed the same model.  Most sports require coaching certifications before somebody can teach/coach, yet it's rare to find that in dance.

I agree that a dedicated pro/am partnership becomes just that - partners.  Yes, the pro is the stronger of the two, for good reason, but the am must be there as a compliment.
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elisedance
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2009, 06:21:51 PM »

Some of the top ones its actuallyt hard to tell who is who just by the dancing!  This raises a very interesting and I hope not too touchy subject... best raised in a different topic I think...
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2013, 12:18:54 PM »

Even though I understand what's being said, I  have trouble wrapping my mind around pro-am being a partnership.  I do think that, as one progresses to higher levels, it gets closer to being a real partnership.

I also think that keeping clear line between teacher and student an be a very god thing for both of.  Partner sounds a bit egalitarian for my taste.  It's a fundamentally unequal relationship, no matter which way you look at it.  The teacher is in the position of authority.  The students holds the purse strings.  And I don't think the two cancel each other out.

It's an unbalanced relationship.  I like the idea of using terminology to remind everyone of that.  But I'm strange that way.
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elisedance
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 05:09:32 PM »

Even though I understand what's being said, I  have trouble wrapping my mind around pro-am being a partnership.  I do think that, as one progresses to higher levels, it gets closer to being a real partnership.

I also think that keeping clear line between teacher and student an be a very god thing for both of.  Partner sounds a bit egalitarian for my taste.  It's a fundamentally unequal relationship, no matter which way you look at it.  The teacher is in the position of authority.  The students holds the purse strings.  And I don't think the two cancel each other out.

It's an unbalanced relationship.  I like the idea of using terminology to remind everyone of that.  But I'm strange that way.
I think you put that well.  Its often unballanced physically as well Smiley   But at the highest levels the two work together to achieve international goals.  In many AM or PRO partnerships one partner is footing most of the bill too - but they aren't called PRO-pro or AM-CashAm partnerships.    Or the partnership could be a deal so that one or other can get a visa or something else. 
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
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