Pivots

[elisedance]

I think this step needs it own topic - what I am interested in is not so much a single pivot, as we use so often, but in multiple pivots, how to do them and how to make them look gorgeous.

My first question is: pivots can be used in any dance form (though some seem to frown on them in FT) but are they danced differently?  Does one put a rise and fall in W pivots and are tango ones really steppy?

[skipper]

I have slip pivots in my foxtrot---

Tango pivots are "steppy" , since that stacato action is part of the charactor.

Smooth VW has pivots as well...

[elisedance]

slip pivots in FT, absolutely, but do you do a series of 4, 6 or 8 pivots in a row - as one might in waltz or tango?

[MusicChica]

Smooth VW has pivots as well...

Yep.  I had a few in a VW showdance I did a few years back.  Actually I think I like VW canter pivots better than regular ones--for some reason, the timing makes more sense and makes them easier for me.

[Dora-Satya Veda]

Excuse me for putting in my 2 cents here. 

I think it was not clear what you were referring to, Elise. I think you are talking about Spin-Pivots and I think Skipper was referring to Pivot/s. There is a big difference. This was why I have not posted here. I was not sure what you were referring to.   

[elisedance]

I realized that but I guess I don't know the correct term - multiple pivots one after the other - is that called spin-pivots?  When we do them they are simply called pivots ...

[TangoDancer]

- what I am interested in is not so much a single pivot, as we use so often, but in multiple pivots, how to do them and how to make them look gorgeous.

My first question is: pivots can be used in any dance form (though some seem to frown on them in FT) but are they danced differently?  Does one put a rise and fall in W pivots and are tango ones really steppy?

I, too, am a wee confused, but.... let's begin by clarifying terms/understanding one another. Though there are several, the ones which I believe apply here are 1- pivot: by definition, a backward rotation on the spot, 2- continuous pivots: exactly as is stated, multiple pivots in partnership, 3- spin pivot: a type/style of mulitple pivots. Terminologies might differ from points around the globe, so others might have different thoughts.

ED's post, I believe, asks about the second choice...multiple pivots. When taking my adjudicator's exams, I was...ahem...admonished...for the way of which I danced pivots. I was given a few simple rules. 1- Only one person is driving at a time. 2- Pivots are not turning rock steps. 3- One should be able to see each partner turning seperately from the other. 4- there is never any rise on pivots, spins, and twists (ironically, with one exception...yes, the spin pivot). Isn't language a wonderful thing? 

However, this indicates that, re the OP's question, pivots are danced the same; there is no technique difference between a tango pivot and a waltz pivot; thus, there is no rise in a waltz pivot (remembering, if terminologies acquiesce, the spin pivot is an exception, and further noting that it does not happen in tango).

[elisedance]

Phew, thanks for that TD it really clarifies - and I'm already glad I started this topic!! 

Yes, indeed, continuous pivots is what I was trying to get to - one step that crosses dance styles not only in foot pattern but also in style.  Let me repeat your 'rules' above they are most instructive:

1- Only one person is driving at a time.
2- Pivots are not turning rock steps.
3- One should be able to see each partner turning seperately from the other.
4- there is never any rise on pivots, spins, and twists
(from TD's post above)

So here's my take on these:
1. This is a mechanical thing, pivots don't work unless you wait!
2. Pivots rotate they do not rock back and forth - one could do them that way but they would be difficult and ugly
3. Is really a different way of saying #1 isn't it?

And then there's !4 (but lets stick to pivots for now).  So this is where I got into the question.  You watch continuous pivots and there is no rise and fall but to dance them we have been taught to rise on the outside and spiral down on the inside - I hasten to add that this is a mechanical action not a styling one and when pro does it you don't actually see these actions since only one partner does it at a time.

I then wondered if one could put rise and fall into the waltz and that led to the issue whether they really are different from the tango ones. 

there a bunch of statements, opinions and (some burried) questions !

[Dora-Satya Veda]

I realized that but I guess I don't know the correct term - multiple pivots one after the other - is that called spin-pivots?  When we do them they are simply called pivots ...

I think you are talking about Spin-Pivots.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Dora-Satya Veda]

but to dance them we have been taught to rise on the outside and spiral down on the inside -

Wait, wait, wait a minute, I have another problem here Elise.

Are you talking about the man or the lady?

The man and the lady do different foot work in Spin-Pivots. So I am really lost now . I agree the man will feel a downward action on the pivot part and a rise on the spin part, but the lady should be doing the opposite. You will be sliding up and down each others front if you do the same footwork. If doing what you describe then when he goes down you will be going up and when he goes up you will be going down. I am not sure what you are trying to do here, you lost me.

DSV

[SwingWaltz]

I don't know a whole lot about them, but we have a whole lot in our Waltz. Probably not a great idea, but it's fun!  

So far to my knowledge, pivots are flat (no significant rise and fall); when I go foward I think about going through the lady instead of around her (so the whole thing has more of a linear action); and finally really use the power created from the standing leg.

In one corner of our Waltz we have, passing natural, outside spin, natual pivot (normal timing), natural pivot (syncopated timing), natural pivot (normaling timing) into a check.

In the opposit corner, we have a same foot lunge, and collect into natural pivots with man going back and exit in promenade.

[elisedance]

but to dance them we have been taught to rise on the outside and spiral down on the inside -

Wait, wait, wait a minute, I have another problem here Elise.

Are you talking about the man or the lady?

The man and the lady do different foot work in Spin-Pivots. So I am really lost now . I agree the man will feel a downward action on the pivot part and a rise on the spin part, but the lady should be doing the opposite. You will be sliding up and down each others front if you do the same footwork. If doing what you describe then when he goes down you will be going up and when he goes up you will be going down. I am not sure what you are trying to do here, you lost me.

DSV

I don't think so DSV unless you do not use the same terminology that TD does - I can't resolve that can you please re-read his post and my answer above?? tks
ee

[Dora-Satya Veda]

I don't think so DSV unless you do not use the same terminology that TD does - I can't resolve that can you please re-read his post and my answer above?? tks
ee

I did read TD post. He didn't talk about the footwork of a Spin-Pivot as far as I can see. He said they were different then just pivots, which I totally agree with.

If you are doing Spin-Pivots then according to 3 of the 4 Schools of Thought, you do have different footwork as a man and as a lady.

Just my 2 cents worth

DSV

[TangoDancer]

I did read TD post. He didn't talk about the footwork of a Spin-Pivot as far as I can see. He said they were different then just pivots, which I totally agree with.  If you are doing Spin-Pivots then according to 3 of the 4 Schools of Thought, you do have different footwork as a man and as a lady.

The man has a downward action on the pivot, and a rise on the spin. The lady's rise/lower is an illusion achieved by proper body alignment and proper pivot technique.

[elisedance]

I'm not sure I've learned the spin pivot yet - nice to have a little advance info  
Don't suppose anyone has a link to one on Utube?