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Author Topic: 'analytical' or 'aware' - which is the best way to learn?  (Read 5585 times)
ttd
Open Bronze
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Posts: 642


« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2009, 12:32:13 PM »


But you don't answer the other question: how does the LEAD pick up the routine?  Do you do it by watching another lead? Or being back led (odd term) by a follow?

Yes, unless you are doing the choreo yourself (an adventure that I have not undertaken yet), it has to start with watching someone else doing it.  Once I've watched it a few times, I try to walk through it with the person who is doing the choreo, getting my vectors down.   Cheesy  The next thing is doing it with a partner and adding in the connection and balance aspects. 

That's one place where I sometimes get hung up.  If there is some step where I can't figure out how to execute on time, or in such a way that I lead it properly and also leave myself in the right "vector" for the next step, then I basically have two options (assuming this occurs at some later time when the person who did the choreo isn't available): (1) ask my instructor to interpret, or (2) study the video frame-by-frame until I think I understand all the motion and balance concepts.  It's split about 50-50 for me as to which approach will be more successful on a given problem. 

As for the back leading: I don't find it an effective teaching technique for me.  The problem is, the more experienced I get, the more I have an immediate reflex-level reaction to being back-led.  It feels to me like a balance upset and I instinctively try to "correct" it.   Shocked  If there's something where I'm just not getting the feel of it, what works for me is to switch roles and have my instructor lead me properly through it.  By feeling the reaction, I can "feel" what the lead is feeling even though I'm not leading it.  (And I don't claim to be a great follow, but I do know the basic concepts.) 

The lead still has to have a game plan. And he has to think what to do to avoid traffic problems. So for the leads LB has to be engaged, they can't turn it off as the follows have to.

Btw, this is kinda advanced topic. I think it should get moved to the advanced portion of the forum.
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Bordertangoman
Gold Star
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Posts: 6088



« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2009, 01:23:15 PM »

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and if you don't agree with one, that is fine also but it should be disputed on facts and evidence......comments regarding perceived attitudes are not helpful to a discussion.

I disagree or rather I agree but an short anecdote; a friend of mine decided that he would train to become a science teacher. He went through the normal process of training to be a teacher all of whoich was based on  an Oxbridge teaching " expert" with lots of letters after his name. Halfway through his course he discovered that none of these teaching methods had actually been tested in class rooms.

I try different methods of teaching dance and find that some work better for some people and some for others.

most people i find ignore the advice i give them which is to practice a little each. simply by practicing soon after the class your retention of what you learnt will imporove (Tony Buzan "Use your head") If you go over the moves mentally instead or as well this also helps. I did this when I was learning tango
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”We need a witness to our lives.  There's a billion people on the planet, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you're promising to care about everything.  The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things, all of it, all of the time, every day. "
GreenEyes26
Mind Workers
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 110



« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2011, 05:42:52 PM »

IMHO they do however never make to the very top until they are able to let go of the “trying to know everything” and become free of the “judge” stopping them.


I've noticed lately that when I dance - or do any sort of movement, really - a signal that's only a fraction of a second will go off in my brain and say, "Do it this way," or "Don't do that," or "You can't do that." I've noticed it several times in the past, but I never paid close enough attention. I notice the signals most often when I need to imitate someone or do something physically, either in theatre or dancing. Signals go off like crazy and say, "Don't do this!" Which makes my action/imitation look half-tried or unfinished. I'm wondering if this would be similar to what DSV is talking about when she mentions the "judge."
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"As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.”

 ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1465


« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2011, 06:32:33 PM »

IMHO they do however never make to the very top until they are able to let go of the “trying to know everything” and become free of the “judge” stopping them.


I've noticed lately that when I dance - or do any sort of movement, really - a signal that's only a fraction of a second will go off in my brain and say, "Do it this way," or "Don't do that," or "You can't do that." I've noticed it several times in the past, but I never paid close enough attention. I notice the signals most often when I need to imitate someone or do something physically, either in theatre or dancing. Signals go off like crazy and say, "Don't do this!" Which makes my action/imitation look half-tried or unfinished. I'm wondering if this would be similar to what DSV is talking about when she mentions the "judge."

I think it's one in the same GE.  What you experience when you ignore those feelings is spot on: a much better performance.  That's why my coach always tells me never to be afraid to make mistakes or fall.  The fear and doubt are horrible performers.  It might also be what's referred to as the "Terror Barrier".  The barrier which we find hard to break through in order to improve because the status quo *feels* comfortable and we *know* that we're safe within the confines of it.  That's why my coach tells us to leave our feelings and egos (knowledge) at the door or we will never break through that barrier.   
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elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
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Posts: 35037


ee


« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2011, 08:52:37 PM »

There's dancing and then there's learning to dance.  As with any art form (I believe) you have to go through the learning process before you can really actually do the art - thats when the learning is automatic.  Actually, you don't have to be perfected before you can do an art - but you do have to step out of learning mode and into just 'being'. 

I think its most obvious in music.  Most people can distinguish 'honest' singing from forced or self conscious.  Same goes for dance - the most beautiful dancers are those for whom there no longer is any technique or musicallity or anything except two bodies moving as one in an aura of music.  I think the term is 'letting go'.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Bordertangoman
Gold Star
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Posts: 6088



« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2011, 04:37:23 AM »

IMHO they do however never make to the very top until they are able to let go of the “trying to know everything” and become free of the “judge” stopping them.


I've noticed lately that when I dance - or do any sort of movement, really - a signal that's only a fraction of a second will go off in my brain and say, "Do it this way," or "Don't do that," or "You can't do that." I've noticed it several times in the past, but I never paid close enough attention. I notice the signals most often when I need to imitate someone or do something physically, either in theatre or dancing. Signals go off like crazy and say, "Don't do this!" Which makes my action/imitation look half-tried or unfinished. I'm wondering if this would be similar to what DSV is talking about when she mentions the "judge."

i WOULD SAY THAT'S a great insight and probably what constitues nerves; if it reaches a level that inerfres with performance. Negative responses are more pronounced in the brain because they signal danger so positive reinforcemnet has to go further to have the same effect. There are different approaches to acheive this; eg in CBT Your 'judge' might be be suggesting a negative outcome so you can challenge that. Another method is Worse Case Scenario and Getting a Perspective. For instance A WCS might be you fall over, dont win and embarass yourself;but if you say its okay to make mistakes then this scenario is in unlekyly outcome, but you'll still live..and because your state of self-esteem is not necassarily depenet on what others think; even a poor performance can be seen as a 'on-off' ( see Optimism by martin Seligman)
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”We need a witness to our lives.  There's a billion people on the planet, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you're promising to care about everything.  The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things, all of it, all of the time, every day. "
Beachbum
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 177



« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2011, 07:33:55 PM »

There's dancing and then there's learning to dance.  As with any art form (I believe) you have to go through the learning process before you can really actually do the art - thats when the learning is automatic.  Actually, you don't have to be perfected before you can do an art - but you do have to step out of learning mode and into just 'being'. 

Not just art, any physical activity that requires specialized motor skills - golf, tennis, downhill skiing...
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Yes.  Quite.
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35037


ee


« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2011, 07:35:31 PM »

....yes indeed.... loving too...  Actually, loving more than anything else...
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Beachbum
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 177



« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2011, 08:32:13 PM »

Uhhhhh...yeaahhh...
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Yes.  Quite.
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35037


ee


« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2011, 09:13:05 PM »

[I think I got his number... Wink ]
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
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