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elisedance
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« Reply #210 on: September 09, 2011, 10:15:37 PM »

Just like the friends you choose. Cool

Good advice at all times Smiley

I guess we did at least choose each other Cheesy
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Some guy
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« Reply #211 on: September 12, 2011, 04:53:35 PM »

Actually, the quantal shift topic itself should have given you an indication of how much participation PDO would have Elise.  If I remember right, it was one of the most successful topics, but the only folks that got any value out of it could be counted on one hand.  If I remember right, the main participants were Elise, myself, Samina, someone named "Dancepro", and a few others I could count on one hand.  Compare that to DF's total membership.

Thats true  - but the ' if you build it they would come' principle should still hold if you have a better idea.  The fact that they did not 'come' means either that you don't have a better idea or that your idea is so far ahead that the 'general dance community' can't yet grasp it. 

Also, if we have a nicer more tollerant and open community should't that be a draw by itself?  Or maybe its our format on here.  I  thinkn we need to upgrad to the new one (there is a final version) but I need some help to achieve that....

I don't think they did not 'come' because DF is better. From my experience, people tend to stick with what's familiar and comfortable. A lot of people on DF probably don't feel a need to go anywhere else even though they might find something better here.

I think you are right - that explains why people didn't move over here (though many did register) but it does not explain why we have been rather poor at recruiting new souls.  I (and Q) have tried to advertise on FB - but one has to be careful since too much puts people off and can be counter productive. 

Totally agree on all counts.
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Some guy
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« Reply #212 on: September 12, 2011, 05:16:32 PM »

On the other hand, I found this forum to be - how am I going to put it - somehow like Ivory Tower. Without the negative connotation of the word. It is small and resourceful (in another way) and super knowledgable. On the other hand - it might have something to do with the platform: words - I sometimes find the knowledge on this site hard to use. I either know it or that is interesting, but I am not exactly certain on how to use it (the few times that I thought me getting it, they turned out to be disasters).

This is an excellent observation!  With the quantal shift thread on DF, I didn't really understand it until I was shown the concepts in person.  Even what I thought I understood from reading that was nowhere near what I learned in person.  

I think the main difference is that DF presents ballroom dancing as a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces have all been separated and jumbled up.  The discussion there is trying to describe where each piece fits in without ever letting the person experience the full picture first.  As you can imagine, it will require a lot of words and there will be a lot of confusion and different points of view because no one has really experienced the picture, not even a basic outline of it.  They’ve experienced pieces of it, but never where the piece fits in to the full picture (to the point that the piece ceases to exist individually and becomes part of a whole).  The other difference is that even when they do fit a few pieces together, they still think of each piece individually and fail to see that it’s part of a whole.  So those that have successfully managed to fit the pieces and those that have fit the same pieces in a completely wrong order think they’re on the same page because the discussion is only of the individual pieces.  That’s why the Quantal Shift was SUCH an eye-opener: it was the first time somebody was bold enough to introduce a concept of seeing the whole picture first. This was a completely difference way of thinking about ballroom dancing, but not very different to how we learned to do things as kids: talking, bicycling, swimming, walking, running, some of which we learned before we even had any real reasoning skills.  All we were presented with was a picture, an image we could keep in our minds and keep working on.  

On the flip side, just like walking, running, bicycling, swimming, etc., once it has been learned, it’s easy to carry on verbose and useful discussions on the individual pieces of the whole.  Hence the reason I have 650+ messages (each one several pages long) on PDO with other Body Schoolers where we discuss pieces of the whole. Those discussions would mean absolutely nothing to someone who doesn’t know where the part we’re talking about fits into the big picture.  The most difficult part is to help the reader form that picture.  That’s why, just like walking, running, bicycle riding, swimming, etc., it’s a lot clearer when you have someone help you create the image in your head… and just like those activities, it’s near impossible to use words to create the whole image.  

I think the most we can do is to get people to question the way they're currently doing things and let them slowly realize that there's another way out there.  As to fully experiencing that other way, I'm not sure if it's something that can be put into words.  I thought I was decent at English until I had my first lesson.  My coach asked me what I would say to my friends on PDO and I went, "I have absolutely no clue to how to explain this".  My answer has not changed since then.

What's even worse is that the only way to describe what I experienced has already been said on PDO many many times and in many different ways by many different people.  It's almost like they're all trying to describe the color purple.  The best someone can do over text is try to relate it to items already in your life so that you'll  know what they're talking about.  That requires the two sides to try and find common ground or experiences, such as the color of a certain kind of flower, or a dress some actress wore in a movie.  Hence the reason you hear the words "walking", "falling", and "playing" so much.  It's because that's as close as they can come to describing the whole picture without actually being there to show the reader what they mean.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 06:02:10 PM by Some guy » Logged
elisedance
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« Reply #213 on: September 12, 2011, 08:08:44 PM »

Thank you for that long description SG.  I think you have something there - the problem as I see it is we are trying to deal with natural (body school) dancing using the terminology and approaches that are standard for hte opposite.  We have to do no less than redefine the dance language.  I suspect its all in there its just that we have not taken the plunge.

Now how to start.  Oh yes: think back to a child taking its first step.....
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Some guy
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« Reply #214 on: September 12, 2011, 08:53:39 PM »

We have to do no less than redefine the dance language.  I suspect its all in there its just that we have not taken the plunge.

Now how to start.  Oh yes: think back to a child taking its first step.....
You're definitely on to something here.
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elisedance
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« Reply #215 on: September 13, 2011, 02:11:19 AM »

We have to do no less than redefine the dance language.  I suspect its all in there its just that we have not taken the plunge.

Now how to start.  Oh yes: think back to a child taking its first step.....
You're definitely on to something here.

But perhaps NOT on this topic Shocked Shocked Grin
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millitiz
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 220


« Reply #216 on: September 15, 2011, 02:47:01 PM »

On the other hand, I found this forum to be - how am I going to put it - somehow like Ivory Tower. Without the negative connotation of the word. It is small and resourceful (in another way) and super knowledgable. On the other hand - it might have something to do with the platform: words - I sometimes find the knowledge on this site hard to use. I either know it or that is interesting, but I am not exactly certain on how to use it (the few times that I thought me getting it, they turned out to be disasters).

This is an excellent observation!  With the quantal shift thread on DF, I didn't really understand it until I was shown the concepts in person.  Even what I thought I understood from reading that was nowhere near what I learned in person.  

I think the main difference is that DF presents ballroom dancing as a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces have all been separated and jumbled up.  The discussion there is trying to describe where each piece fits in without ever letting the person experience the full picture first.  As you can imagine, it will require a lot of words and there will be a lot of confusion and different points of view because no one has really experienced the picture, not even a basic outline of it.  They’ve experienced pieces of it, but never where the piece fits in to the full picture (to the point that the piece ceases to exist individually and becomes part of a whole).  The other difference is that even when they do fit a few pieces together, they still think of each piece individually and fail to see that it’s part of a whole.  So those that have successfully managed to fit the pieces and those that have fit the same pieces in a completely wrong order think they’re on the same page because the discussion is only of the individual pieces.  That’s why the Quantal Shift was SUCH an eye-opener: it was the first time somebody was bold enough to introduce a concept of seeing the whole picture first. This was a completely difference way of thinking about ballroom dancing, but not very different to how we learned to do things as kids: talking, bicycling, swimming, walking, running, some of which we learned before we even had any real reasoning skills.  All we were presented with was a picture, an image we could keep in our minds and keep working on.  

On the flip side, just like walking, running, bicycling, swimming, etc., once it has been learned, it’s easy to carry on verbose and useful discussions on the individual pieces of the whole.  Hence the reason I have 650+ messages (each one several pages long) on PDO with other Body Schoolers where we discuss pieces of the whole. Those discussions would mean absolutely nothing to someone who doesn’t know where the part we’re talking about fits into the big picture.  The most difficult part is to help the reader form that picture.  That’s why, just like walking, running, bicycle riding, swimming, etc., it’s a lot clearer when you have someone help you create the image in your head… and just like those activities, it’s near impossible to use words to create the whole image.  

I think the most we can do is to get people to question the way they're currently doing things and let them slowly realize that there's another way out there.  As to fully experiencing that other way, I'm not sure if it's something that can be put into words.  I thought I was decent at English until I had my first lesson.  My coach asked me what I would say to my friends on PDO and I went, "I have absolutely no clue to how to explain this".  My answer has not changed since then.

What's even worse is that the only way to describe what I experienced has already been said on PDO many many times and in many different ways by many different people.  It's almost like they're all trying to describe the color purple.  The best someone can do over text is try to relate it to items already in your life so that you'll  know what they're talking about.  That requires the two sides to try and find common ground or experiences, such as the color of a certain kind of flower, or a dress some actress wore in a movie.  Hence the reason you hear the words "walking", "falling", and "playing" so much.  It's because that's as close as they can come to describing the whole picture without actually being there to show the reader what they mean.

I agree with just about everything you said. I think that it has a lot to do with the limitation of the words, and the fact that dancing itself is an art of doing, or visual art (sorta). So I have been asked "how do you describe a color that others had never seen in word?" (similar to the example you had about "purple.") In literature, that is ok. We can just say so and let the readers' own imagination to fill up the rest - and it actually even sounds a bit poetic, right? "Some color that is beyond the range of human imagination." However, as you mentioned, it doesn't work quite well in terms of discussing about dancing. Because in order to describe something, it requires certain degree of accuracy. However, language (just about all the spoken language) is inherently inaccurate (which could be a good thing, as I showed above), even worse, people interpret, even the same words, same sentence, same paragraph differently because of different backgrounds and experiences; and beside, people are physically different from one to another, too. So there is an error bar (so to speak) on most of the descriptions we make in order to fit into most people.

In fact, I have an immediate example: for instance, the word "big picture." For me, the big picture could mean a few things (which seems to be a bit different from how you use the word). For me, the big picture could mean the end result: People dancing beautifully in beautiful outfits in a gorgeous venue. Or, this is closer to my heart, I have to say - big pictures are some abstract concepts. For instance, balance (this I didn't make up - I took it from Irvines' book: Our dancing Years (?)), dynamic, power, etc. You name it.

Also, I wonder if it has less to do with looking things from big picture vs. details as much as, well, it is simply different school of thoughts. And if I remember correctly, dancepro on DF once said, each of the 4 schools can get you to the top of the pyramid - but at least at the beginning, try not to mix and mash different school together - that would only create confusions. The way I see it was that: people that could understand the discussions probably are at a high enough point that they are pretty good (and they did it their own ways to be that good): so why changing? As for people that doesn't really understand the discussions - maybe they just aren't ready (due to the limitation of words itself, for instance). Then why making them more confused?

That being said, I actually had no problem if people decide to do it their ways. Why getting people questioning their own way? This site (and the quantal shift threat on DF, for instance) provides a different way of thinking and looking at dancing. If you like it, great. If you don't, also great.
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Some guy
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« Reply #217 on: September 15, 2011, 06:03:04 PM »

I agree with just about everything you said. I think that it has a lot to do with the limitation of the words, and the fact that dancing itself is an art of doing, or visual art (sorta). So I have been asked "how do you describe a color that others had never seen in word?" (similar to the example you had about "purple.") In literature, that is ok. We can just say so and let the readers' own imagination to fill up the rest - and it actually even sounds a bit poetic, right? "Some color that is beyond the range of human imagination." However, as you mentioned, it doesn't work quite well in terms of discussing about dancing. Because in order to describe something, it requires certain degree of accuracy. However, language (just about all the spoken language) is inherently inaccurate (which could be a good thing, as I showed above), even worse, people interpret, even the same words, same sentence, same paragraph differently because of different backgrounds and experiences; and beside, people are physically different from one to another, too. So there is an error bar (so to speak) on most of the descriptions we make in order to fit into most people.

In fact, I have an immediate example: for instance, the word "big picture." For me, the big picture could mean a few things (which seems to be a bit different from how you use the word). For me, the big picture could mean the end result: People dancing beautifully in beautiful outfits in a gorgeous venue. Or, this is closer to my heart, I have to say - big pictures are some abstract concepts. For instance, balance (this I didn't make up - I took it from Irvines' book: Our dancing Years (?)), dynamic, power, etc. You name it.
Fully agree.  Hence it's hard to described to someone how to ride a bike or swim in a way that enables to do it.  Also, there are certain things that some folks are little weary of even when the word is clear.  For example, when swimming, you can ask a person to lay their arms out to the side and just float on water on their backs.  However, that person will find it a lot easier if someone shows them and is there to catch them when they perform this.  In the Body School, concepts like "falling" can be quite scary and dangerous without help and guidance. 

Also, I wonder if it has less to do with looking things from big picture vs. details as much as, well, it is simply different school of thoughts. And if I remember correctly, dancepro on DF once said, each of the 4 schools can get you to the top of the pyramid - but at least at the beginning, try not to mix and mash different school together - that would only create confusions. The way I see it was that: people that could understand the discussions probably are at a high enough point that they are pretty good (and they did it their own ways to be that good): so why changing? As for people that doesn't really understand the discussions - maybe they just aren't ready (due to the limitation of words itself, for instance). Then why making them more confused?

That being said, I actually had no problem if people decide to do it their ways. Why getting people questioning their own way? This site (and the quantal shift threat on DF, for instance) provides a different way of thinking and looking at dancing. If you like it, great. If you don't, also great.
Exactly.  The only way folks would question their way is if they aren't happy with their way.  For example, some feel they've spent too much time getting nowhere, some find themselves sustaining injuries, some find it too hard to remember so many things on a competition dance floor even if they're seasoned competitors.  In my case, I was all of the above.  My current method was not getting me to the top of any pyramid any time soon.  The pyramid itself can be a very personal thing too.  Is the pyramid the competition ranking ladder?  Is it mastery of the principles?  It is the ability to dance with anyone and anything?
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #218 on: February 09, 2012, 11:17:55 AM »

Well, I think PDO being so small compared to DF is a good indicator of how many open minded folks versus drones there are in ballroom dancing.  In my whole city, I'm the only one I'm aware of that's on here.  I think I'm in the fourth largest city in the world, so that kind of says something.  I know a few others that joined and found absolutely nothing of use for them here from my city.  They are, coincidentally, also the folks that don't believe in any of the methods we speak of and I know this for a fact.  The words "quantal shift" might as well be four letter words cussing them out of here.  Coincidentally, they're also the folks I regularly beat at competitions: go figure... except for one couple I came within 1 point of beating on two occasions (not bad considering my partner still believes in a polar opposite approach to what I believe in... and yes, she was one of the folks that lasted about one day on this board). 

So you're saying we are an intellectiual, ethical, open-minded, generous, tollerant, pioneer elite?  Hmmm... I think I can live with that...

I would say "Yes" that is what the group here is!!!!

DSV
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #219 on: February 09, 2012, 11:43:18 AM »

This is an excellent observation!  With the quantal shift thread on DF, I didn't really understand it until I was shown the concepts in person.  Even what I thought I understood from reading that was nowhere near what I learned in person. 

I think the main difference is that DF presents ballroom dancing as a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces have all been separated and jumbled up.  The discussion there is trying to describe where each piece fits in without ever letting the person experience the full picture first.  As you can imagine, it will require a lot of words and there will be a lot of confusion and different points of view because no one has really experienced the picture, not even a basic outline of it.  They’ve experienced pieces of it, but never where the piece fits in to the full picture (to the point that the piece ceases to exist individually and becomes part of a whole).  The other difference is that even when they do fit a few pieces together, they still think of each piece individually and fail to see that it’s part of a whole.  So those that have successfully managed to fit the pieces and those that have fit the same pieces in a completely wrong order think they’re on the same page because the discussion is only of the individual pieces.  That’s why the Quantal Shift was SUCH an eye-opener: it was the first time somebody was bold enough to introduce a concept of seeing the whole picture first. This was a completely difference way of thinking about ballroom dancing, but not very different to how we learned to do things as kids: talking, bicycling, swimming, walking, running, some of which we learned before we even had any real reasoning skills.  All we were presented with was a picture, an image we could keep in our minds and keep working on. 

On the flip side, just like walking, running, bicycling, swimming, etc., once it has been learned, it’s easy to carry on verbose and useful discussions on the individual pieces of the whole.  Hence the reason I have 650+ messages (each one several pages long) on PDO with other Body Schoolers where we discuss pieces of the whole. Those discussions would mean absolutely nothing to someone who doesn’t know where the part we’re talking about fits into the big picture.  The most difficult part is to help the reader form that picture.  That’s why, just like walking, running, bicycle riding, swimming, etc., it’s a lot clearer when you have someone help you create the image in your head… and just like those activities, it’s near impossible to use words to create the whole image. 

I think the most we can do is to get people to question the way they're currently doing things and let them slowly realize that there's another way out there.  As to fully experiencing that other way, I'm not sure if it's something that can be put into words.  I thought I was decent at English until I had my first lesson.  My coach asked me what I would say to my friends on PDO and I went, "I have absolutely no clue to how to explain this".  My answer has not changed since then.

What's even worse is that the only way to describe what I experienced has already been said on PDO many many times and in many different ways by many different people.  It's almost like they're all trying to describe the color purple.  The best someone can do over text is try to relate it to items already in your life so that you'll  know what they're talking about.  That requires the two sides to try and find common ground or experiences, such as the color of a certain kind of flower, or a dress some actress wore in a movie.  Hence the reason you hear the words "walking", "falling", and "playing" so much.  It's because that's as close as they can come to describing the whole picture without actually being there to show the reader what they mean.
WOW, SG….this is an excellent explanation about the learning of dancing.

My teachers often said that “dancing” is so beyond words and that there are not enough words in the world to describe it. Even if you tried to explain it with words you would always fall short. They said that it is like the center of the universe. You can talk about it, draw theories about it, calculate it and study it, but you will never really know what it is like, till you have been there. We as teachers can get you close and walk you all around “it” but you have to do “it” to really understand what we are talking about. Yet, once you have experienced it, it is so beautiful, wondrous and special and yet so “SIMPLE”.  It just “IS”. It simply “IS”. They would say “IT JUST IS” and when you are doing it, all that comes to mind is “I AM”. 

How do you explain “I AM” to somebody that doesn’t know or understand that experience?

Dancing has to be experienced in person to really be understood.

DSV
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 09:51:04 PM by Dora-Satya Veda » Logged

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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #220 on: February 09, 2012, 12:31:19 PM »

My teachers used to say that “dancing” is so beyond words and that there are not enough words in the world to describe it. Even if you tried to explain it with words you would always come short. They said that it is like the center of the universe. You can talk about it, draw theories about it, calculate it and study it but you don’t really know what it is like, till you have been there. We as teachers can get you close and walk you all around “it” but you have to do “it” to really understand what we are talking about. Yet, once you have experienced it, it is so beautiful, wonders and special and yet so “SIMPLE”, it just “IS”. It simply “IS”. They would say “IT JUST IS” and when you are doing it, all that comes to mind is “I AM”.

How do you explain “I AM” to somebody that don’t know or understand that experience?

Dancing has to be experienced in person to really be understood.

DSV


Which begs the question DSV: Do you still dance?  I mean really dance all out, not teach and practice with students?
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
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Posts: 1464


« Reply #221 on: February 09, 2012, 12:52:03 PM »

WOW, SG….this is an excellent explanation about the learning of dancing.

Wow, I don't remember writing any of it!  I don't think I was present when I wrote that. 
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #222 on: February 09, 2012, 01:07:43 PM »

WOW, SG….this is an excellent explanation about the learning of dancing.

Wow, I don't remember writing any of it!  I don't think I was present when I wrote that. 

Wow, have you got your drills down pat...
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #223 on: February 09, 2012, 01:08:40 PM »

[I bet its been a long time since DF got three 'wow's in a row..  Just sayin' ...]
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
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« Reply #224 on: February 09, 2012, 01:25:16 PM »

I agree.  Cheesy
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