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| | | |-+  'In The Moment' vs 'In Parallel Motion'
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Author Topic: 'In The Moment' vs 'In Parallel Motion'  (Read 4973 times)
elisedance
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« on: June 12, 2009, 08:11:33 AM »

One could argue that this should be in the 'lead-follow-lead' topic but I think the question is important enough to warrant its own topic. 
I get to make some arbitrary decisions Smiley

We have discussed lead-follow in detail and from different perspectives.  One of the most interesting is the 'in the moment' (ITM) dancing that may apply more to the woman than the man (though both do it).  In this you basically clear your mind and respond to the lead as it occurs.  As I see it, its advantages are in excellent continuity through the couple - the woman is always perfectly tuned to the man and it is terrifically protected agains changes in competition routines (whim, forget, imminent collision etc).  Perhaps a limitiation, however, is that the woman may look passive and the steps may not have quite the freedom and dynamic range.

However, there is a very different way of doing it (probably the way most competitors are learning - and also many if not most social dancers that learn a routine as a unit) and I am learning about that now - it came up in discussions with Rugby in the lesson topic).  With this method both partners have a lot of freedom as to how they are going to execute a step or sequence.  Each learns the steps and the routine however, the man's role is primarily to trigger the step/sequence - how it is executed by the woman is really her choice.  The advantage of this method is that the woman is far less passive and can put a lot of energy and expression into what she does.   For want of a better term (if someone has one please share) I'm going to call this In Parallel Motion (IPM).

I'm coming to the conclusion (perhaps I am dense and just catching on) that top ballroom is a mix.  IPM to execute their most dynamic and free routines.  However, the moment they are faced with an unusual situation where they have to go off-routine and into unchartered territory, the woman has to switch to ITM.  In practise, and at large competitions the early heats the couple alternates frequently between IPM and ITM but as the field clears - in the final round - dancing is almost exclusively IPM - and thats the dancing that we see on video.
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Bordertangoman
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2009, 09:44:42 AM »

maybe ( and I have to add I have credentials to be in this thread)

its like jazz; jazz musicians rely on knowing whole reels of scales intimatley in their playing fingers. it is this familiarity that allows them to move around within a structure of rhtthm, cadence and so forth.

If we take this analogy to the dance; it is being so familiar with the steps that it allows one more mental space to create expression.

But ITM can be on familiar or unfamiliar territory.
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elisedance
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2009, 01:00:08 PM »

AT dancers are surely masters of ITM so of course you have cred for this topic!!
The question is where your 'independence threshold' is.  For extreme ITM its almost nonexistant - and i am guessing thats true for AT too - for solo dancing its obviously 100% but for partner competition dancing it can vary grossly. 
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TangoDancer
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 03:38:51 AM »

Firtsly, I believe that BTM mentioned creds in relation to his sax moreso, but not excluding his AT.

Secondly, I am a huge proponent of the so called IPM, but do not give it its own label. I encourage follows to always be ITM yet to always be a self expressive extension of the lead. In other words, I do not wish for the follow to reserve her energy and self expression for only what we are referring to as IPM moments. I want her to react, interact, interchange, and precipitate all of her energies and expressions with mine even in ITM dancing.

To me, it is like a conversation...I (the lead) might say something (lead something), and she (the follow) will not simply be ITM...nod or iterate, but will take what I said (follow) and respond/embellish upon it (be IPM) without being distracting or taking the conversation off course. I always say to follows who wish to be ITM (passive) and merely extend what I lead, "I wish to dance with you...not for you". That is to say, that I gain as much from her energy and expression dancing ITM as I would IPM.
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 11:05:05 AM »

I am a huge proponent of the so called IPM, but do not give it its own label. I encourage follows to always be ITM yet to always be a self expressive extension of the lead. In other words, I do not wish for the follow to reserve her energy and self expression for only what we are referring to as IPM moments. I want her to react, interact, interchange, and precipitate all of her energies and expressions with mine even in ITM dancing.

I would totally agree. I was always known as a very active lady and yet I was always with my partner. I teach the ladies to be very active but doing their 4 jobs only.

I have never seen a great lady dancer that was not active. All of my teachers always wanted active and responsive ladies. If you would hang on like a sack of potatoes/rice, they would all tell you off (both my male and female teachers).

Dora-Satya Veda
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Edward Teller
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 05:15:32 PM »

Firtsly, I believe that BTM mentioned creds in relation to his sax moreso, but not excluding his AT.

Secondly, I am a huge proponent of the so called IPM, but do not give it its own label. I encourage follows to always be ITM yet to always be a self expressive extension of the lead. In other words, I do not wish for the follow to reserve her energy and self expression for only what we are referring to as IPM moments. I want her to react, interact, interchange, and precipitate all of her energies and expressions with mine even in ITM dancing.

To me, it is like a conversation...I (the lead) might say something (lead something), and she (the follow) will not simply be ITM...nod or iterate, but will take what I said (follow) and respond/embellish upon it (be IPM) without being distracting or taking the conversation off course. I always say to follows who wish to be ITM (passive) and merely extend what I lead, "I wish to dance with you...not for you". That is to say, that I gain as much from her energy and expression dancing ITM as I would IPM.


 Wow, do we have a psychic link or what!  This is exactly what I tell everyone.  Michael Wentick speaks about this too and how it brought their dancing to an all new level.
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catsmeow
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 08:40:40 PM »

Sorry, I dont understand this at all ! Perhaps a male who has competed for many years, knows how to make almost instant decisions on where to go, how to get there and yet make a perfect lead at nearly the same time can help me further.
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catsmeow
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 08:46:55 PM »

DSV: I hope you dont mind repeating those four jobs that women do. I am sure you posted them somewhere but I have to be back at work in less then eight hours so cant spare the time to find them
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2009, 09:25:22 PM »

Sorry, I dont understand this at all ! Perhaps a male who has competed for many years, knows how to make almost instant decisions on where to go, how to get there and yet make a perfect lead at nearly the same time can help me further.

The man is trained to improvise during practice using different combinations and "chewing gums". We use to have a dance game. We would dance around and if the teacher saw you dance two steps in a row from your routine, you were out. The last couple standing would get the practice fee back. In other words they would get a free practice. This game was done both in my native country and also in England. Like everything else it does take skill but once you have it you can cruse around with out consciously thinking about steps.

Dora-Satya Veda
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2009, 09:30:00 PM »

DSV: I hope you dont mind repeating those four jobs that women do. I am sure you posted them somewhere but I have to be back at work in less then eight hours so cant spare the time to find them

Not at all CM. The Jobs are posted in the advanced section, under the limited access and then under terminologies. Hope you find them.  Smiley
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

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catsmeow
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2009, 11:32:05 PM »

Chewing gums?  okay DSV I'll bite...what are chewing gums
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catsmeow
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2009, 11:37:43 PM »

when we stop dancing competitively dow we get worse immediately?
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pruthe
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 11:41:32 PM »


Not at all CM. The Jobs are posted in the advanced section, under the limited access and then under terminologies. Hope you find them.  Smiley

I just found this limited access section. Somehow missed this. Good stuff!
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2009, 05:13:24 AM »

Sorry, I dont understand this at all ! Perhaps a male who has competed for many years, knows how to make almost instant decisions on where to go, how to get there and yet make a perfect lead at nearly the same time can help me further.

The man is trained to improvise during practice using different combinations and "chewing gums". We use to have a dance game. We would dance around and if the teacher saw you dance two steps in a row from your routine, you were out. The last couple standing would get the practice fee back. In other words they would get a free practice. This game was done both in my native country and also in England. Like everything else it does take skill but once you have it you can cruse around with out consciously thinking about steps.

Dora-Satya Veda

...and yet you learned routines and I think you teach routines.  Perhaps you could expand on the question if all dancing should be ITM then why have routines at all?  Why not ban them entirely?

It seems to me that the purpose or a routine is to have something familiar - and hence NOT entirely ITM.  That a routine can allow you to achieve if not more, perhaps something a bit different than ITM alone?

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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 02:00:14 PM »

Chewing gums?  okay DSV I'll bite...what are chewing gums

OK CM, I left your "Gum" at the same place as before. Wink Cheesy
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