partnerdanceonline.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 24, 2014, 03:15:26 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
A lot of people are visiting Smiley Smiley
Undecided Undecided but not many are posting....
please say hi Cheesy
116503 Posts in 1857 Topics by 223 Members
Latest Member: dancewithmetoronto
* Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  partnerdanceonline.com
|-+  Partner Dancing
| |-+  Partner Dances
| | |-+  Argentine Tango (Moderators: captain jep, Rugby)
| | | |-+  Good times bad times
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print
Author Topic: Good times bad times  (Read 5040 times)
captain jep
Moderator
Bronze
****
Posts: 299



« on: June 09, 2009, 06:08:16 PM »

I think most of us here check in on DF from time to time. Recently its been a bit of a bunfight. The old guard lobbing missiles against the nuevo crowd. Aspersions being cast on those who dont live or havent been to BsAs.

I'm just wondering, does this always happen in AT discussion forums? Every thread at the moment seems to get hijacked by the same old rhetoric. Can we build something healthier over here on PDO? Or is it only a matter of time before it all goes the same way over here?
Logged

Do not go gently into that good night ...
Me
pre-bronze

Posts: 23



WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2009, 09:01:49 AM »

Openly criticizing Pulpo for a lack of connection was pretty much the last straw for me. It was ignorant for Jan to criticize his dancing for what she perceived to be a lack of connection to his partner. If she knew anything about Pulpo’s style, she would not make this comment on a public forum. For her to follow up her criticism with an unfounded opinion that his partner left him for what she perceived to be a failure to connect while dancing is quite absurd. If she wants to parade her ignorant notions around, fine. But, to perpetually hijack the forum and disrespect both people participating in the forum and to disrespect tango masters we look up to is not acceptable for me. For weeks now I have tried to follow several threads of discussion, only to see them hijacked with more worn-out rhetoric that authentic tango is a cuddle dance to be experienced exclusively in Argentina; in the arms of fossilized masters; and to music recorded decades ago. Some might find this perspective quaint, but when these people proceed to belittle or outright insult anything that does not fall within their naively limited scope, the charm is dispelled. Normally I simply ignore people with this perspective, but as I said a moment ago, the problem is these frequent, narrow-minded interjections often censor discussion or flat out change the subject entirely. This is a problem for me because I come to online forums to learn from other people, and I appreciate different perspectives and enjoy exploring movement. I understand that new people need to become acquainted with custom, but I know these people have been told several times, both on and off board, that their attitudes are disharmonious and not acceptable.

All of this is to say, I participate in many online forums, though I admit I frequent the DF more than others. The advantage to participating in multiple forums is I can "go visit" different forums from time to time. When things become heated or disharmonious in one, I quietly duck out and go hang out at another for a while. I don't generally place blame anywhere. I attribute most of this to my "Is it the phase of the moon?Huh?" theory. It just happens sometimes. Though, lately, it has been much worse, or seems to be.

No matter where we go, there will always be the "My kung fu is better than your kung fu" nonsense. We just have to live with it, I suppose. I find it pretty ridiculous that within one common dance, people manage to argue and hurl insults over something as simple as a difference in embrace.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 09:18:19 AM by Me » Logged

Ready-made and custom Swarovski jewelry designed for ballroom dancers.
***http://ballroomjewelry.ecrater.com/***
captain jep
Moderator
Bronze
****
Posts: 299



« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2009, 10:50:04 AM »

Absolutely. I suspect she is the kind of person who went to BA to "live the dream", and she is hanging onto that vision for dear life. I dont have much sympathy either. If she wants to watch nuevo she can - it's up the road at Villa Malcolm or in La Viruta. And even if she doesnt like it there's no reason to diss the many people on the board who like nuevo just as much as they appreciate the classic stuff.

I hang out on salsa boards from time to time (well lurk mostly) and there is just the same thing there - you cant really dance salsa until you've been to Cuba, Cuban salsa is the only authentic version etc etc. It just gives me a headache.

Anyway, nice to see you here, Me. Since you're here, I'll just pop off and go and make you a virtual mojito....
Logged

Do not go gently into that good night ...
Me
pre-bronze

Posts: 23



WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2009, 01:49:19 PM »

A virtual mojito? Woo hoo!

It's 5:00, somewhere...  Grin
Logged

Ready-made and custom Swarovski jewelry designed for ballroom dancers.
***http://ballroomjewelry.ecrater.com/***
Beachbum
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 177



« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2009, 04:27:34 PM »

A virtual mojito? Woo hoo!

It's 5:00, somewhere...  Grin

Virtual?   Angry  That's heresy!  Get yourself a REAL one!
Logged

Yes.  Quite.
TangoDancer
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 736



« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2009, 01:35:20 AM »

Nice to se all of you here, and a great post 'Me'.

There are compound issues happening here, led by 2. 1- Dance is a different kind of art. If you are a painter, and your painting is no good...then the painting is no good. If you are a potter, and a pot turns out ugly, then the pot is no good. If you are a dancer, and you can not be perfect, then you are no good. In dance, we are the art. If we fail, it is not the product that is no good; it is ourselves. 2- AT is one of the world's greatest marketing schemes. It has been presented by extremely savvy argentines as the mystical, unattainable, dance all-be all. Americans love everything foreign, sexy, elusive. Those who attain it, to whatever degree, are placed into the unspoken elite of I am better, bigger, richer, prettier than you (the ultimate american disease).

Jan is lost. She is a sad and unhappy person who is submerging herself into AT as her salvation from mediocrity. Her probleme...extremely shallow and limited thinking. Our probleme...she actually has a lot of good things to share. When we think of it, really, BR has always been exactly the same.
Logged

The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
captain jep
Moderator
Bronze
****
Posts: 299



« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2009, 06:15:37 AM »

There's nothing wrong with being "mediocre" ( Smiley  just teasing!)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 06:23:05 AM by captain jep » Logged

Do not go gently into that good night ...
Me
pre-bronze

Posts: 23



WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2009, 09:26:41 AM »

When we think of it, really, BR has always been exactly the same.

That is really odd. I had the exact same thought earlier.
Logged

Ready-made and custom Swarovski jewelry designed for ballroom dancers.
***http://ballroomjewelry.ecrater.com/***
cornutt
Administrator
Silver
*****
Posts: 1845


« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2009, 09:53:00 AM »

As you guys probably know, I had my own run-in with Jan over there.  My opinion of that situation is unprintable, and I can't believe that the DF mods are letting it slide.  It's not just that she has strong opinions; it's that she has no problem with launching ad homineum attacks against anyone who disagrees with her.  She has stirred up trouble in the ballroom area too. 

As for the specific argument, it reminds me of the genre-purity movement in popular music in the late '70s.  A lot of very talented musicians (Wynton Marsalis to name one) got sucked into that.  They wound up producing works that were technically precise and painfully correct for the genre they were in, but aboslutely soulless because they were rehashing strict conventions that permitted no room for individual interpretation.  Where the movement was concerned, people who stepped outside of a genre's conventions, or (heaven forbid) mixed genres, were not only incorrect but positively evil. 
Logged
Bordertangoman
Gold Star
***
Posts: 6088



« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2009, 10:21:07 AM »

I think most of us here check in on DF from time to time. Recently its been a bit of a bunfight. The old guard lobbing missiles against the nuevo crowd. Aspersions being cast on those who dont live or havent been to BsAs.

I'm just wondering, does this always happen in AT discussion forums? Every thread at the moment seems to get hijacked by the same old rhetoric. Can we build something healthier over here on PDO? Or is it only a matter of time before it all goes the same way over here?

how about getting the bunfight over with first?
I'll play the Creationist and you can be Spencer Tracy (Inherit the Wind)
Logged

”We need a witness to our lives.  There's a billion people on the planet, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you're promising to care about everything.  The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things, all of it, all of the time, every day. "
captain jep
Moderator
Bronze
****
Posts: 299



« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2009, 05:10:58 AM »

No need for buns over here - I see some of you guys are still raring for a scrap over there...
Logged

Do not go gently into that good night ...
Bordertangoman
Gold Star
***
Posts: 6088



« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2009, 10:14:59 AM »

Fairy cakes and angel delight then?
Logged

”We need a witness to our lives.  There's a billion people on the planet, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you're promising to care about everything.  The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things, all of it, all of the time, every day. "
MusicChica
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1325


« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2009, 10:30:28 PM »

So I went to my first-ever AT event Friday night--the local AT troupe sponsors a dance every other week during the summer at one of the city's parks, and my friend (the photographer, I've mentioned her here before) absolutely loves AT, so she dragged me with her.  Obviously, this event is geared towards beginners and there wasn't a whole lot of partner-switching going on for that very reason.  Since I didn't go with a built-in partner, I didn't get much dancing in.  Nonetheless, I had fun, and I can see why people get addicted to this dance.

That said, during the class prior to the open dancing, the teacher said something that I found vaguely offensive as a ballroom dancer.  She was talking about AT close embrace and how AT is danced grounded into the floor.  Then, she approximated a (very bad) ballroom hold and said, "And this is in contrast to ballroom tango, which is danced very high and you ignore your partner."  Now, I would hope that you more educated AT dancers realize that ballroom tango is neither of those things--it's danced very low into the floor, the knees are actually bent the whole time, and while you don't look at your partner, you're hardly ignoring them.  In fact, the connection with your partner is paramount.  And besides, in a true AT close embrace, you don't look at your partner either!

So my question is, is this a common attitude amongst AT dancers, this misguided information about ballroom tango?
Logged
Vagabond
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1333


~ Mai Più Senza! ~


« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 12:18:36 AM »

So I went to my first-ever AT event Friday night--the local AT troupe sponsors a dance every other week during the summer at one of the city's parks, and my friend (the photographer, I've mentioned her here before) absolutely loves AT, so she dragged me with her.  Obviously, this event is geared towards beginners and there wasn't a whole lot of partner-switching going on for that very reason.  Since I didn't go with a built-in partner, I didn't get much dancing in.  Nonetheless, I had fun, and I can see why people get addicted to this dance.

That said, during the class prior to the open dancing, the teacher said something that I found vaguely offensive as a ballroom dancer.  She was talking about AT close embrace and how AT is danced grounded into the floor.  Then, she approximated a (very bad) ballroom hold and said, "And this is in contrast to ballroom tango, which is danced very high and you ignore your partner."  Now, I would hope that you more educated AT dancers realize that ballroom tango is neither of those things--it's danced very low into the floor, the knees are actually bent the whole time, and while you don't look at your partner, you're hardly ignoring them.  In fact, the connection with your partner is paramount.  And besides, in a true AT close embrace, you don't look at your partner either!

So my question is, is this a common attitude amongst AT dancers, this misguided information about ballroom tango?
Hi MC
we have had the same experience at various locations/venues in Australia and made us turn away from AT. We have many friends in Ballroom that have tried and even praise the AT but also got jaded for the very same reason. I don't no why, AT is not the first form of dance neither will it be the last but the attitude of many Milongueros would suggest its what they believe.

I vividly remember a statement of one of them saying that if you like ballroom you'll never be a dancer. They don't even want to attend socials and comps even on invitation, but do like to blame us for not ben able to compete. 

Unlike the attitude in Ballroom I feel that popular AT in the west still has a long way to go
Logged

Dancing with the feet is one thing, but dancing with the heart is another.
TangoDancer
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 736



« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2009, 02:43:44 AM »

So I went to my first-ever AT event Friday ..... I had fun, and I can see why people get addicted to this dance.

So my question is, is this a common attitude amongst AT dancers, this misguided information about ballroom tango?

There are several things to note here. I'll probably have my head handed to me for this, but, firstly, AT outside of Argentina is 50% dance and 80% hype. The world fell in love with tango again around the early '80s. The argentines, not being stupid, saw an opportunity to market this much sought after product. The very nature of the dance offered them the perfect marketing tool...its improvisation. BR, worldwide, has been marketed and taught extremely badly. There are thousands, if not millions, of BR dancers, ranging from rank beginners through Supreme Gold (?) who believe that dance is a syllabutized system of slows and quicks and patterns. Would that I had a nickle for every time someoen has said to me that amer waltz is a box step...I could have retired years ago.

Noting that BR is largely regulated to 10 steps on a syllabi, the argentines capitalized on the fact that AT is not. I still know teachers who will teach hours of walking in AT, then turn around and teach patterns involving twists, cbm. and developpees in BR. Conversely, I know many students who openly have displayed their disdain for the cost and course of a BR workshop because it was too expensive and the teacher didn't show them anything new, then attend a AT workshop that costs more, and be completely satisfied to have walked for 3 hours. Marketing at its finest. What many argentines do not talk about is that for many years in BsAs, amer BR was the thing to do. Many of them do it very well, but they won't tell the tourists.

Secondly, amer and int'l tango are, as I mentioned, often taught horribly...amer - marched like a cadet in a military gradution ceremony, and int'l crouched down into the knees like Groucho Marx. Thank God we are getting away from all of that as we become more physically/kinesthetically educated. AT, though having gone through its own evolution, has largely stuck to its improvisational lead/follow, few rules, no syllabi/pattern origin. I had the privilege of living there while I learned many years ago, and I never once heard someone say slow or quick until years later, post early 80s (when AT began to be marketed to the BR world). Argentines are often jested about their egos, but it was/is a good thing that they have preserved the essence of AT because it is a closer example of what true dance should be. I will agree with you, however, that it could be so without the ego-trip (down play of everything else).

Lastly, most of the kind of talk that you heard, MC, comes from ill educated teachers who are trying to either make a joke based upon something that they have heard, or make a point based upon something they have heard...both rather than teaching something that they actually believe or could back up if asked. Watching the amer version of DWTS, we have heard them say all kinds of things about BR tango...dance with the knees bent because your chaps are stiff from sweat...dance turned away from your partner because he stinks after a hard day at work...dance with angry facial expressions...and the BS goes on. People hear this crap, and repeat it...sometimes because they are taught it by someone else who heard it, and other times because they believe it because they were not taught something different.

Don't be too hard on AT, and don't be too hard on the teacher. Most of all, please do not judge AT by that kind of stuff. I still believe that it is one of the best examples of how all partnership dance should be done, and one of the dances that offer the best foundation for one wishing to become good.
Logged

The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!