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Author Topic: Good times bad times  (Read 4235 times)
Vagabond
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Posts: 1333


~ Mai Più Senza! ~


« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2009, 02:56:33 AM »

Quote

Don't be too hard on AT, and don't be too hard on the teacher. Most of all, please do not judge AT by that kind of stuff. I still believe that it is one of the best examples of how all partnership dance should be done, and one of the dances that offer the best foundation for one wishing to become good.
But that goes for all sorts of dancing, as long it has not being commercialised, the point EM an myself are making is the fact that the community as such s..ts upon BR and I admit parts of the BR does that on AT, the whole issue is that it should not occur. It is there where this whole world is falling apart by not telling "students" how to act properly, not discrimination but living side by side. Each of us has an philosophy and each should respect the others........... that's what lacking commercialisation or not!

I do agree with the BS we see in BR tango regardless if it is AM or Int'l, we (they) don't smile cause you might crack up your tan.... I have travelled a far bit, and dance is most of the time an expression of joy, happiness...not of anger
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TangoDancer
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2009, 04:01:08 AM »

Agreed.
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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
Bordertangoman
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2009, 09:53:37 AM »

"In his psychoanalytic theory of personality, Sigmund Freud suggested that psychic energy is generated by the libido. But how is this psychic energy used? According to Freud, this energy is released through biological means known as drives. A drive has two parts: a biological need and a psychological need. For example, the state of hunger leads to both a physical need for food and a psychological desire to eat. These two forces work together to form a drive to eat food when it is needed.

Freud believed that people continuously generate psychic energy, but only a certain amount is available for use at any point in time. This psychic energy is then used by the three components of personality: the id, the ego, and the superego. The id is the first location where all of this psychic energy can be found. The id is responsible for satisfying basic needs and desires and operates through the primary processes. This energy eventually moves through the other aspects of personality - the ego and the superego.
Cathexis
This investment of energy in an object, idea, or person is known as cathexis. However, since the id does not distinguish between a mental image and reality, it may not lead to direct action to satisfy a need. Instead, the id may simply form an image of the desired object that is satisfying in the short-term, but does not fulfill the need in the long term. For example, a person who is hungry may create a mental image of a desired food rather than actually eating.

Because of this, the ego is able to capture some of the energy dispersed by the id. When this energy becomes associated with a ego-related activity, it becomes known as an ego cathexis. This dispersal of energy might involve seeking out activities that are related to the need. For example, a person may purchase a cookbook or watch a cooking show on television when they are hungry.
Anticathexis
Remember, the id does not distinguish between reality and unreality. Because of this, the id may act in ways that are unrealistic or not social acceptable. Fortunately, the ego can also act to block irrational, immoral, or unacceptable actions from the id. This is known as an anticathexis and acts to block or suppress cathexes from being utilized.

Repression is perhaps the best-known anticathexis. Repression serves to keep undesirable actions, thoughts, or behaviors from coming into conscious awareness. However, repressing these unwanted id urges takes a considerable investment of energy. Because there is only so much energy available, the other processes may be shortchanged by the energy use of the anticathexes.
"

What has this to do with tango? I hear you ask.
My belief is that we are seeking some kind of validation of our experiences, but when someone devalues our experience by saying
" You are not doing it right"
" It has to be done this way"
"Its more authentic if....." and so forth.

Havin experienced a  visitng Argentine teacher saying to the class I was in; "we dont dance like this in Buenos Aires" - referring to our open embrace and several years later an English guy ensconce in Bs As came into a class I was teaching and did a demonstration of Milonguero style tango, I have to admit to having felt angry on behalf of my teachers on the first occasion and just baffled on the second.I was familiar with Apilado but this didn't look like that.

Having danced with Argentine ladies here I have received compliments on my smoothness and certainly my leading has a clarity that followers appreciate. Having learnt a lot of stuff in tango classes and being able to dance 80% of it, would be more if I had a followers at my own level locally to dance with.

Does dancing open embrace made it less enjoyable? the answer for me has to be no. Is dancing close embrace a better experience; that really does depend on who I'm dancing with and partly her height relative to mine.

My hypothesis is that for some people authenticity validates their dancing gives it value and by this token anything else is de-valued. One seeks certain qualities in ones dancing and these vary from person to person. For some connection is the apotheosis of dancing, for others it could be having fun, or socialising, or showing off.

An analogy might be being rich or poor; You may believe that being the former will make you happy, but there are plenty of poor people who are happier than people with riches; our capacity to feel any particluar emotion is not increased by an arbitrary sum of a medium of exchange.

A zen parable is the story of a butcher when asked which of his cuts of meat was the best replied. They are all the best.

I have had classes which have descended into anarchic hilarity and I have danced dances which have been transcendent. I have danced and been bored stupid by the music, I have felt a surge of energy when  apiece of music comes along that thrills me.

.. to be continued.. but comments welcome
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 10:15:47 AM by Bordertangoman » Logged

”We need a witness to our lives.  There's a billion people on the planet, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you're promising to care about everything.  The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things, all of it, all of the time, every day. "
captain jep
Moderator
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« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 01:22:25 PM »

But we keep coming back for more ....

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Do not go gently into that good night ...
Bordertangoman
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« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2009, 10:09:07 AM »


Jan is lost. She is a sad and unhappy person who is submerging herself into AT as her salvation from mediocrity. Her probleme...extremely shallow and limited thinking. Our probleme...she actually has a lot of good things to share.

er pretty much could be said about myself actually.(not Me to avoid confusion)
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”We need a witness to our lives.  There's a billion people on the planet, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you're promising to care about everything.  The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things, all of it, all of the time, every day. "
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1437


« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2009, 04:10:29 PM »

I have noticed that ballroom usually gets the bad end of the stick in comparisons with any sort of dancing.  However, I haven't heard ballroom dancers talk badly about other types of dances.  Does that say anything about ballroom dancers?  I can't help but sound a little snobbish when I ask if ballroom dancers have some sort of greater appreciation for other arts?  I have seriously yet to hear a ballroom dancer belittle AT dancers, or a ballroom dancer belittle a hip hop dancer, or a rock and roll dancer.  However, I've heard every one of the those other dancers (pros) talk "badly" about ballroom dancing.  Maybe it's because they are severely misinformed about ballroom dancing, especially because of people like the DWTS judges (who, save for Len Goodman, don't know much about it in the first place) painting a wrong picture of it?

I even know of some folks that when from ballroom to AT.  They never got even close to getting to the essence of ballroom, and hence were very quick to conclude that ballroom is a "flawed" art and AT is where the art is at.  They have said to me things like, "in AT, it's not about the steps and your partners body tells you where to move, not his frame!".  I go, "and that's different from ballroom how?".  That's when they look at me like a I'm a retard who knows nothing about ballroom.  I've offered to dispel any myth they have about ballroom dancing but few AT dancers I know take the challenge because after I've proven them wrong on the first few points they throw at me, they go, "well, that's just how YOU do it, that's not how so-and-so teaches it".  It's a tough battle to fight.
 Undecided
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 04:16:09 PM by Some guy » Logged
QPO
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Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2009, 06:17:21 AM »

Interesting that should should make those remarks. I feel that Ballroom dancers may have a broader outlook on dancing as we cross many different styles.

Other dances don't have as many variations so perhaps this gives us an appreciation of others and their art.
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2009, 06:39:37 AM »

I have noticed that ballroom usually gets the bad end of the stick in comparisons with any sort of dancing.  However, I haven't heard ballroom dancers talk badly about other types of dances.  Does that say anything about ballroom dancers?  I can't help but sound a little snobbish when I ask if ballroom dancers have some sort of greater appreciation for other arts?  I have seriously yet to hear a ballroom dancer belittle AT dancers, or a ballroom dancer belittle a hip hop dancer, or a rock and roll dancer.  However, I've heard every one of the those other dancers (pros) talk "badly" about ballroom dancing.  Maybe it's because they are severely misinformed about ballroom dancing, especially because of people like the DWTS judges (who, save for Len Goodman, don't know much about it in the first place) painting a wrong picture of it?

I even know of some folks that when from ballroom to AT.  They never got even close to getting to the essence of ballroom, and hence were very quick to conclude that ballroom is a "flawed" art and AT is where the art is at.  They have said to me things like, "in AT, it's not about the steps and your partners body tells you where to move, not his frame!".  I go, "and that's different from ballroom how?".  That's when they look at me like a I'm a retard who knows nothing about ballroom.  I've offered to dispel any myth they have about ballroom dancing but few AT dancers I know take the challenge because after I've proven them wrong on the first few points they throw at me, they go, "well, that's just how YOU do it, that's not how so-and-so teaches it".  It's a tough battle to fight.
 Undecided


INteresting - but maybe the analogy to Toronto works here?  You can go just about anywhere in Canada and they put down Toronto - sometimes vehemently.  But I have never heard a negative thing about any other place in Canada in toronto.  Not one.  So why do they dislike us?  I think the reason is the same as in ballroom, we don't really notice the rest of the coutry.  Because Toronto is so large and indiependent (dare I say successful?) it ignores its sister cities and they are struggling more for recognition.

Ballroom has managed to get on the big time and can take liberties that other dance forms can not.  Small wonder that there would be some resentment at that success.  Its also why we should reach out to those danceforms - to recognize that at the level of pure dance there really is no good or bad forms, they are all dance.  Sure, some can express things or achieve things that the other's can not but that is a point of view not an absolute.   
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David Bailey
Intermediate Bronze

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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2009, 07:59:16 AM »

I completely forgot about this forum.... duh...

I'm just wondering, does this always happen in AT discussion forums?
I dunno. Possibly.


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QPO
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Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2009, 08:12:34 AM »

well glad you found it again! Shocked
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Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
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David Bailey
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2009, 08:23:22 AM »

1- Dance is a different kind of art. If you are a painter, and your painting is no good...then the painting is no good. If you are a potter, and a pot turns out ugly, then the pot is no good. If you are a dancer, and you can not be perfect, then you are no good. In dance, we are the art. If we fail, it is not the product that is no good; it is ourselves.
Excellent post.

2- AT is one of the world's greatest marketing schemes. It has been presented by extremely savvy argentines as the mystical, unattainable, dance all-be all.
I think that's a bit harsh. To an extent all dances are "marketing schemes", but AT has been around long before it was marketed externally.

Jan is lost. She is a sad and unhappy person who is submerging herself into AT as her salvation from mediocrity. Her probleme...extremely shallow and limited thinking. Our probleme...she actually has a lot of good things to share. When we think of it, really, BR has always been exactly the same.
Huh, well that's extremely harsh. I wouldn't want to put it that strongly. I'd simply say that she's got a very tightly-focussed view of things, with some narrow definitions and limited assumptions.
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David Bailey
Intermediate Bronze

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« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2009, 08:27:14 AM »

That said, during the class prior to the open dancing, the teacher said something that I found vaguely offensive as a ballroom dancer.  She was talking about AT close embrace and how AT is danced grounded into the floor.  Then, she approximated a (very bad) ballroom hold and said, "And this is in contrast to ballroom tango, which is danced very high and you ignore your partner."  Now, I would hope that you more educated AT dancers realize that ballroom tango is neither of those things--it's danced very low into the floor, the knees are actually bent the whole time, and while you don't look at your partner, you're hardly ignoring them.  In fact, the connection with your partner is paramount.  And besides, in a true AT close embrace, you don't look at your partner either!

So my question is, is this a common attitude amongst AT dancers, this misguided information about ballroom tango?
To be honest, most AT teachers don't really talk about other dances in my experience; it's usually not helpful to draw comparisons.

Although it depends on the context of course. If you're talking to a ballroom crowd, ballroom analogies and comparisons are valid. But yes, if you do such a thing you should ensure that you know what you're talking about. And most AT teachers probably know very little about BR tango.
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David Bailey
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 55


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« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2009, 08:33:24 AM »

There are several things to note here. I'll probably have my head handed to me for this, but, firstly, AT outside of Argentina is 50% dance and 80% hype. The world fell in love with tango again around the early '80s. The argentines, not being stupid, saw an opportunity to market this much sought after product. The very nature of the dance offered them the perfect marketing tool...its improvisation.
It's fair to say that there are some things in AT which have travelled well, and some things which haven't. Which, ironically, brings us back to Jan, as she'd argue that the only real AT is one which includes the whole package. Which doesn't work.

My gut feeling is that there's a "core" component to Tango, and a set of "optional extras", which vary from locale to locale.

Of course, I'm not totally sure which is which...
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2009, 08:37:37 AM »

Hi there Dave!  Lovely to see yiou here again Smiley
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Peaches
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 38


« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2009, 10:28:39 PM »

That said, during the class prior to the open dancing, the teacher said something that I found vaguely offensive as a ballroom dancer.  She was talking about AT close embrace and how AT is danced grounded into the floor.  Then, she approximated a (very bad) ballroom hold and said, "And this is in contrast to ballroom tango, which is danced very high and you ignore your partner."  Now, I would hope that you more educated AT dancers realize that ballroom tango is neither of those things--it's danced very low into the floor, the knees are actually bent the whole time, and while you don't look at your partner, you're hardly ignoring them.  In fact, the connection with your partner is paramount.  And besides, in a true AT close embrace, you don't look at your partner either!

So my question is, is this a common attitude amongst AT dancers, this misguided information about ballroom tango?
LOL. 

I'm sorry, I just have to laugh.  Yeah, I've found this to be pretty common amongst AT dancers.  It's the same exact inverse of ballroom dancers who think they know AT just because they can throw together a few figures. 
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