partnerdanceonline.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 23, 2014, 04:24:45 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
A lot of people are visiting Smiley Smiley
Undecided Undecided but not many are posting....
please say hi Cheesy
116449 Posts in 1855 Topics by 221 Members
Latest Member: EVE_Dance
* Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  partnerdanceonline.com
|-+  Whats on your mind?
| |-+  General Discussion
| | |-+  Band-Aids, Asprins and Splints (Moderators: QPO, Rugby, Lioness, ZPomeroy)
| | | |-+  Dance injuries and possible remedies
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print
Author Topic: Dance injuries and possible remedies  (Read 4284 times)
Blue Tango
Bronze
*
Posts: 356



« on: June 09, 2009, 12:23:22 PM »

I once had a dance teacher who was primarily a ballerina and she said that dance was injury: you will hurt yourself.  I'm not so sure myself since I know that when I do things right it's not ouchie and only when I do things wrong does damage tend to come my way.  I thought it might be interesting to see who's hurt what, and how, and the remedies they used to fix themselves.

I'll start.

One day, in an intensive technique class the young pro from Russia was making us move from one side to the other using some sort of technique that seems to have gone from my memory.  Anyways, it started to hurt and on the up I felt a very sharp pain, which caused me to have to stop immediately (I actually limped out the door without a boo).  Turns out I had torn my meniscus which is kinda painful.  I was not allowed to dance for at least six weeks which was slow torture but realistically I should have stayed off longer.  I went to physio which didn't seem to help much... okay to be honest it seemed to add to the strength but the pain remained.  So, being the addict I am I came back to my dancing and worked through the pain, mostly, till one day I was helping out in a basic class and one of the ladies was a Registered Massage Therapist.  She did something magic and seventy percent of the pain went away immediately, and the stupid knee started healing.  I'd say it's about ninety plus percent now, but I use it for technique.  If I put my foot in the wrong place and try to do any turn I have an immediate warning system  Wink 

Anyone have any advice for the proper upkeep of knees?  Very important things those joints.  I suspect if I were to not dance for something like six months I'd heal up fairly well but the concept just doesn't seem to want to stay in my head.
Logged
Dora-Satya Veda
Gold Star
***
Posts: 6871


« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 12:49:38 PM »

Anyone have any advice for the proper upkeep of knees?  Very important things those joints.  I suspect if I were to not dance for something like six months I'd heal up fairly well but the concept just doesn't seem to want to stay in my head.

I had torn meniscus and loose cross tendons in both knees at age 12. I was told that I needed to have an operation on both knees. I was young so my mother would not allow the operation to take place. I then went to a specialist and was told the only sport I could and should be doing was Dancesport. I didn't really like the dressing up part so it took another year before looking into it. The specialist also said that I should take lessons with a teacher that either had some education in anatomy or a teacher that understood body mechanics. I was lucky enough to find teachers that all understood body mechanics. I was told by my main teacher that one of the biggest illusions in dancing was the bending of knees. He told me to never bend my knees but keeping them slightly flexed at all times and just divide the feet and legs to make the appearance of going down. I must say I did pretty well with doing that. I still have not had the operation and am not in need of one now. My main teacher also always said that you have pain doing anything in dancing you are doing it wrong. Stop what you are doing and check it with your teacher. You might feel sore when doing something new but you should never feel pain.

Just my 2 cents worth!

PS. I had picture taken of my knees back at age 12 and then again 10 years ago. My knees have healed and there is not a sign of ever having a problem. From the first pictures to the second pictures, I continued to dance with not break and my knees still managed to heal.

Dora-Satya Veda
Logged

"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
cornutt
Administrator
Silver
*****
Posts: 1845


« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2009, 02:39:06 PM »

I once had a dance teacher who was primarily a ballerina and she said that dance was injury: you will hurt yourself. 

I've heard a couple of other ballerinas say that pointe will inevitably damage your feet, but I don't know enough about ballet to say.  I've never come across anything in ballroom dance where proper technique led to injury to myself.  My instructor has had several foot surgeries; I asked her once if that was due to the amount of time she spends dancing, and she said no, it was cumulative damage due to bad technique over time.  I know there are a couple of things that I cannot do with it hurting; for example, I cannot, with my arm straight out to the side, get my hand above head level and still maintain a flat shoulder without it being quite painful.  But I don't think that's a matter of technique so much as it is just forcing my body to do something that it is not capable of doing.
Logged
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1464


« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 03:02:09 PM »

I once had a dance teacher who was primarily a ballerina and she said that dance was injury: you will hurt yourself. 

I've heard a couple of other ballerinas say that pointe will inevitably damage your feet, but I don't know enough about ballet to say.  I've never come across anything in ballroom dance where proper technique led to injury to myself.  My instructor has had several foot surgeries; I asked her once if that was due to the amount of time she spends dancing, and she said no, it was cumulative damage due to bad technique over time.  I know there are a couple of things that I cannot do with it hurting; for example, I cannot, with my arm straight out to the side, get my hand above head level and still maintain a flat shoulder without it being quite painful.  But I don't think that's a matter of technique so much as it is just forcing my body to do something that it is not capable of doing.

Had to bump this topic up because folks are talking about injuries on other threads and it seems to warrant its own topic, which luckily, someone had already started. 

Cornutt, the arm thing is all technique.  Please don't force your body.  I used to be unable to do this until a Gyrotonic teacher looked at me and went, "the heck are you trying to do?  You know that's anatomically impossible?".   Turns out there's a trick to it, simple body mechanics, a simple one but kinda hard to explain (just like ballroom dancing in general).  It has NOTHING to do with forcing it and ANYONE can do it. 

In my partnership, we used to have some pretty horrendous injuries.  Before ballroom dancing I used to weight train, and I could leg press about 990-lbs.  At the time, it was around 6 times my body weight.  My legs were quite strong to say the least.  Then when I started ballroom dancing, the Waltz destroyed my knees... and the Tango destroyed my ankles.  It made no sense that I could defy six times my body weight in the gym but not support my own body weight when dancing.  The reason I was given was that ballroom dancing was much harder than weight training due to the fact that you didn't have pulleys and levers to maintain one's proper positioning.  Made sense to me at the time (and I'm embarrassed to admit that).  My partner had 15-years of ballet training.  No problems.  Then started ballroom dancing and injured her knees, her back, and neck.  It wasn't a big deal at the time because everyone around me was having/had already undergone/or was about to have surgery on some part of their knee, bunions, ankles, etc.  So it was considered "normal" to visit the chiropractor.  All the ladies who danced Latin were losing toe-nails and instead of "good grief!", the common sentiment was, "ah!  She's becoming a good dancer!".  I think more has to be done in the ballroom community to nip these injuries in the bud.  It's shocking really how much bunions, knee damage, and other injuries are considered normal for ballroom dancing.  One the biggest problems is that most folks aren't aware that there is another way, a better way.  When I first started I was told by a Canadian pro that there was a better way, but my coaches immediately pounced on him and told us that what he was teaching was all wrong.  Being a lone voice (and a visiting one at that), it was easy at the time to disregard him and believe my coaches (and pretty much everyone else in my dance circle).  Later I learned that this pro trained Blackpool finalists and semi-finalists while my pros were struggling to get their students into a U.S. pre-champ final, let alone survive the first cut of a champ competition. 



Logged
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35002


ee


« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 03:07:25 PM »

Perhaps you mentioned this pro before - a long time ago (in another world, far far away...).  But I've forgotten who it was and now I MUST know Cheesy  Lets see, was it a 'he' and did his surname start with T?
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
samina
Silver
**
Posts: 1584



« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 03:24:27 PM »

One the biggest problems is that most folks aren't aware that there is another way, a better way.  When I first started I was told by a Canadian pro that there was a better way, 

i'm always relieved to hear this kind of talk. and DSV's explanation of how to manage use of the knees so as not to bend them beyond a general flex. it's all so *gentle* sounding... my cuppa, for sure. seems the more i learn, the more gentler and easier i'm discovering i want it.

Logged
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1464


« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 03:35:25 PM »

Right on Samina.  The mentality that ballroom dancing required pain, suffering and injury is so ingrained into the system here in the U.S. that if I were to go back in time and meet myself when I first started dancing, my previous self would call me crazy and put me in a straight jacket for trying to convince him that ballroom dancing should not be causing injuries.  Not sure how it is in Canada or Australia.  Is the mentality similar?  I hope not.

The other predominant mentality, like Cornutt alluded to: instead of "use the Force Luke!", it's "force it in there Luke!".  When I used to learn Latin, my previous coaches would force my arm backwards and twist it out of shape to where it was about to pop out of my shoulder.  All this just so that my New Yorkers would look good.  Their rather flattering explanation was that I had "too much muscle" and no flexibility.  BS (pardon my abbreviated French).  A gyrotonic instructor showed me how what they were forcing me to do would indeed cause my shoulder to pop out, and the fact that I had a decent amount of muscle (at the time, not anymore) was probably what kept my shoulder from suffering permanent injuries. 
Logged
MusicChica
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1325


« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 04:06:24 PM »

When I used to learn Latin, my previous coaches would force my arm backwards and twist it out of shape to where it was about to pop out of my shoulder.  All this just so that my New Yorkers would look good.

Hmmm...now that's interesting.  One of the things my pro has been stressing lately is that arms on New Yorkers patently do NOT go too far backwards or twist...
Logged
samina
Silver
**
Posts: 1584



« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2010, 04:09:20 PM »

that mentality is typically american with all things, really. but i don't think just american... it's also strong in the eastern european culture that predominates here in the US ballroom community, perhaps even stronger, who knows. "being tough"... i see it very much as a part of what has masculinized ballroom since they came over and took it over from the previous ruling class.

anyway, my view from the beginning has been to look for the gentler path of least resistance, but only because that's the mindset that has yielded so much healing and progress for me elsewhere in my life. and truly, with the powerful resistance i felt in my body, it could be the only cure. Wink
Logged
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1464


« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 04:31:24 PM »

Hmmm...now that's interesting.  One of the things my pro has been stressing lately is that arms on New Yorkers patently do NOT go too far backwards or twist...
You're very lucky!
Logged
cornutt
Administrator
Silver
*****
Posts: 1845


« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 06:37:20 PM »

When I used to learn Latin, my previous coaches would force my arm backwards and twist it out of shape to where it was about to pop out of my shoulder.  All this just so that my New Yorkers would look good.

Hmmm...now that's interesting.  One of the things my pro has been stressing lately is that arms on New Yorkers patently do NOT go too far backwards or twist...

By coincidence, I had a coaching with Olga K today and we worked on this very thing.  She in fact does want me to get my arm pretty far back... but not by forcing it rearward; she emphasized not taking my arm behind my back.  Instead, she wants to see it accomplished by torso rotation and better posture.  She also showed me how I've developed an unnecessary "swooping" motion in the raising of my arm, which forces the shoulder to move through a "stop" that it really isn't meant to move through.  (In fact, I did it just now, and my shoulder blade popped rather painfully.)  Rather, I should move the arm outwards in a straighter "whip" motion.  When I do it this way, I do in fact find that I can get the arm up higher without pain and with less of a hunched shoulder. 

Going back to the general point... competitive dancing is an "evolved" sport that arose from a recreational activity.  Since not too many people engage in recreational activities that cause them pain (except skateboarders  Shocked), it would make sense that the types of things you do in competitive dancing should not cause pain if you're doing them properly.  That's not a perfect analogy since judges and audiences may want, for artistry reasons, to see poses and positions and motions that are contradictory to pain-free "natural" dance motion.  But for the most part, it should still hold true. 

The thing that stands out in my mind, as far as dance injuries, is bunions.  Particularly with women, the dance community needs to be finding ways to reduce the incidence of this.  I've just seen second-hand, with what DW went through, how much trouble bunions can cause.  Interestingly, of the dancers I know, only one has ever needed knee surgery.  And in his case, the real problem was rheumatoid arthritis; he said he probably would have needed surgery eventually anyway and all the dancing did was speed it up some. 
Logged
Dora-Satya Veda
Gold Star
***
Posts: 6871


« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 08:11:49 PM »

I am sorry to get a little strong on this subject. If a ballroom dancer experiences any injury like bunions, bad knees, lower back issues, neck issues and other stuff in the same genre then they are basically choosing to work against basic anatomy of the body. There are two schools of the four schools of thought in Standard that doesn’t cause injuries to the body and one of the two schools of thought in Latin that doesn’t cause injuries. So if you don’t want any injuries due to wrong use of the body then choose one of the schools that work with the body’s biomechanics rather then against the body’s biomechanics.

The saying “No pain, no gain” is a load of crap (excuse my French). I have never heard anything so ridicules in my life. The teachers that I worked with all said that if there was any kind of pain then you were doing it WRONG. They would then have you go back and work on the basic principles until you understood what you had done wrong and then you were to work on what was right.

I have taught many places in my 20+ years in this business. I have found that the need to create pain on oneself is no only a issue in the US but worldwide. One of my teachers is calling “the need to inflict pain on oneself” an epidemic. It sure has reach epidemic measures as it is now one of the most common subjects that are discussed amongst dancers. It has almost reached a level where if you have no injuries then you are weird and must not be a good dancer. When I competed then the only injuries that ever occurred was due to an accident and not due to misuse of the body.

DSV
Logged

"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35002


ee


« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 10:42:26 PM »

Well said DSV.  When ballroom becomes a survival sport is when I take up bicycling instead...
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Dora-Satya Veda
Gold Star
***
Posts: 6871


« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2010, 10:53:07 PM »

Well said DSV.  When ballroom becomes a survival sport is when I take up bicycling instead...

Thank you ee. I actually managed after writing it several times to keep it civilized.

My chiropractor actually says that with all the complaints he is hearing he is beginning to think that some people have misunderstood ballroom dancing for a combat sport.  Wink

DSV
Logged

"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35002


ee


« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2010, 11:13:22 PM »

My chiropractor actually says that with all the complaints he is hearing he is beginning to think that some people have misunderstood ballroom dancing for a combat sport.  Wink

no, - well maybe a bit between you and your partner Cheesy
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!