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Author Topic: Unlearning  (Read 4119 times)
Vagabond
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1333


~ Mai Più Senza! ~


« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 07:36:19 AM »

There are 2 topics here; 1- unlearning habits, and 2- silver before bronze, and, that the latter is one of my pet peeves, I couldn't let it go. Sorry..... Roll Eyes

Let's concur that; 1- dance is movement, 2- the law of motion is move-continue-stop, 3- in dance, we refer to this as step-swing-recover (setting the body in motion, allowing the motion to continue, collecting when the momentum stops). Accepting these as givens, we apply certain techniques to these 3 movements, SSR. In smooth, re the feet, this is heels - toes - toes, and re the core this is movement of/from center, and shoulder lead. These are truths that remain so throughout (as they are really based more on physics than dancing).


I understand what you are trying to say, but you can't refer to Newton's law of motion (inertia) in this way.

"A body persists its state of rest or of uniform motion unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force."

The emphasis should be on the start end ending of the movement. A state of rest can only be exerted by an external unbalanced force otherwise there will be no motion. The same goes for ending the movement. The external forces that are of importance here is not our motorical ability but Earths gravity and atmosphere (friction).

We should try to emphasise that we are able to use these forces and apply our ability to change movements in the direction of choice.

But in theory you are right
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 07:55:45 AM by Vagabond » Logged

Dancing with the feet is one thing, but dancing with the heart is another.
Dora-Satya Veda
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Posts: 6871


« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2009, 11:54:41 AM »

Instead of unlearning, I learn new information and tack on any existing information that I have which I think might be useful.  For example, I changed the way I dance Standard almost completely.  I learned the new form of movement as a completely new style.  That way I wouldn't have any old baggage or habits that I would revert back to.  After I changed my basis of movement, my frame, the feel of the dance etc., I was able to tack on all the Standard steps and patterns I knew quite easily to my new set of knowledge.  

You are really saying something very profound here SG. This is a great way to explain it.

I remember when ever I did something totally different my teacher would always say “That is like a new dance that you have never done before, isn’t it. Now this dance is called “Waltz”” or what ever dance it was that I had changed. I do quit often say words to the same effect to my students when they change dramatically.
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2009, 12:06:08 PM »

Let's concur that; 1- dance is movement, 2- the law of motion is move-continue-stop, 3- in dance, we refer to this as step-swing-recover (setting the body in motion, allowing the motion to continue, collecting when the momentum stops). Accepting these as givens, we apply certain techniques to these 3 movements, SSR. In smooth, re the feet, this is heels - toes - toes, and re the core this is movement of/from center, and shoulder lead. These are truths that remain so throughout (as they are really based more on physics than dancing).

Totally agree here....

Quote
Cornutt's statement might be true if speaking of persons whom have not been trained proerly from the inside out rather than from the outside in. This is speaking of person's whom have been trained from a book, or set of rules/patterns rather than from their body's natural movement/s. Further, they were trained from the feet/fingertips to the core rather than from the core to the feet/fingertips. When one is trained from day one with what we call "The Movement of Dance" (above paragraph), then they are far ahead of the curve. For all practical purposes, this is what we call silver (american).

I also have to agree here. Unfortunately so many people learn “flash and trash” in today’s dance environment. Many students and/or teachers want the “look” and the “instant” results. I guess the “fast food” culture has entered the dance world. It does take a little time to work from the inside out and many students are just not willing to spend the time. Sorry I could go off on this subject, so I better stop right here…..
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1464


« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2009, 08:39:04 PM »

Thanks some guy I wait to here your results, in the mean time I will look to changing the way I view my learning...
Hey QPO!  The first time I changed my Standard dancing around, it took me about 6-weeks to do.  I'm happy to say as far as Latin is concerned, this afternoon marked the completion of my change in that!  Quite amazing how quickly I was able to do that.  I did have to employ some drastic measures to make it happen that quickly but like DSV says, I'm going to call this new form of dancing, "Latin"! Grin
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QPO
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Continental Champion
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Posts: 20818


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 09:28:36 PM »

Good for you SG...

I too am changing the way I view learning.. and I know that swing, rise and fall are coming from a different place to what I think they were....keeping lowered all these things feel much better.


Well three weeks to go till our next comp which is interstate so will be interesting to see how we go.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 11:00:32 PM by QPO » Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1464


« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 10:54:20 PM »

Best of luck QPO!!!  You're realizing that a change in perspective can completely change the learning curve.  You'll be amazed at how quickly you progress with a mere change in perspective... as in all things in life I guess!
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ttd
Open Bronze
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Posts: 642


« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2009, 10:44:01 AM »

I'd like to talk more about actually fixing bad habits, rather than adding to technique. I feel that sometimes old habits tend to slip back in, certainly to increase frustration levels. Plus if the other person does something to you to encourage your bad habit, it makes it even harder for fix it. For a while, I actually avoided dancing smooth socially, because I realized that some people I was dancing did things with their posture which encouraged me to become back-weighted, and that was something I was actively working to fix in my lessons.
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QPO
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Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2009, 10:49:22 PM »

I'd like to talk more about actually fixing bad habits, rather than adding to technique. I feel that sometimes old habits tend to slip back in, certainly to increase frustration levels. Plus if the other person does something to you to encourage your bad habit, it makes it even harder for fix it. For a while, I actually avoided dancing smooth socially, because I realized that some people I was dancing did things with their posture which encouraged me to become back-weighted, and that was something I was actively working to fix in my lessons.

Yes I agree. I find if I dance with other social dances that the bobbing can restart...or as you mentioned that the poor posture comes back... I try to dance with dancers that are ex comp dancers or are comp dancers, (but they don't all do it properly either) but at the moment I only dance with my partner.

I wonder it is a conscious thing that each time you are on the dance floor that you must be aware of what you are doing (especially for a follower).
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Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
MusicChica
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1325


« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2009, 08:51:10 PM »

Ugh, currently in this process now.  It's frustrating.

Apparently I have a tendency for my hips/lower stomach to come forward on rumba and cha-cha walks.  I'm not even sure where I picked it up, but for some reason I have a real aversion to rotating my hips and upper body back where they should be.  Pro is trying to retrain me.  It's going really slowly and I have to think about it way too much.  Don't know why it has to be so hard. Undecided
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QPO
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Continental Champion
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Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 05:48:37 AM »

I think it comes down to muscle memory and what feels right for your body. I had the same thing the other day about taking my foot back and I think it is going straight back but it was going across my body...for it to be going straight back it actually feels like to is going out to the side...now that I know that it feels like that I can make the change but it does not feel right to do.
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elisedance
Administrator
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ee


« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2009, 08:32:53 AM »

Ugh, currently in this process now.  It's frustrating.

Apparently I have a tendency for my hips/lower stomach to come forward on rumba and cha-cha walks.  I'm not even sure where I picked it up, but for some reason I have a real aversion to rotating my hips and upper body back where they should be.  Pro is trying to retrain me.  It's going really slowly and I have to think about it way too much.  Don't know why it has to be so hard. Undecided

Ah.  Try to think of your head and spine as one unit.  move this back on your hips - don't introduce a curvature just shift it back.  You are getting it when it improves your ballance.  The most likely reason you are doing it is because you are looking for contact with your partner as a security.  so the corollary is o focus more on maintaining a strong frame and hand contact so that the lead is transmitted through the hand and arm and not the body.  My disclaimer is that this is for standard but I suspect it is the same in latin.
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cornutt
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« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2009, 11:24:16 AM »

Ah.  Try to think of your head and spine as one unit.  move this back on your hips - don't introduce a curvature just shift it back.  You are getting it when it improves your ballance.  The most likely reason you are doing it is because you are looking for contact with your partner as a security.  so the corollary is o focus more on maintaining a strong frame and hand contact so that the lead is transmitted through the hand and arm and not the body.  My disclaimer is that this is for standard but I suspect it is the same in latin.

Almost.  Instructors and coaches I've worked with want dancers to be more forward weighted in Latin.  It's only been fairly recently that I've started making a serious effort to do that, and part of the reason is that I'm not confident in my balance in that stance.  It feels like my body weight is way out on my toes; I don't quite trust it yet.  MC is, er, how shall I put this... she has a high center of gravity.   Wink  So that might be the problem.  I could see unconsciously tilting one's hips and pelvic bone forwards to try to stabilize that.  My pelvis has a natural backward tilt, so it prevents me from doing that. 
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Some guy
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1464


« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2009, 12:07:56 PM »

This topic couldn't have come back up at a better time!  The advice I had given earlier on "unlearning" is something I COMPLETELY forgot to do this time around.  My partner was also trying to "unlearn" instead of just "learning" the new way of doing things.  It was good to read the older posts and realize that I really need to stop unlearning and just start "learning".  One thing that bugs me is that the math doesn't work out: when I first spoke of unlearning in my previous posts I realized that I had to unlearn about 90% of what I knew.  After my latest bout of coaching two weekends ago, I realize that I have to unlearn about another 90%.  So that's 180% I have "unlearned" this year!!!   Undecided
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MusicChica
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1325


« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2009, 03:02:54 PM »

MC is, er, how shall I put this... she has a high center of gravity.   Wink 

Have I told you lately that I love you? Cheesy
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cornutt
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« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2009, 04:09:24 PM »

MC is, er, how shall I put this... she has a high center of gravity.   Wink 

Have I told you lately that I love you? Cheesy

 Kiss  Kiss
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