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Author Topic: Jive  (Read 6609 times)
Vagabond
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1333


~ Mai Più Senza! ~


« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2010, 05:21:00 AM »


Charles Darwin in particular ...

[etc.  Interesting stuff - but can we put it somewhere else?  I can make a new board even....]
Go for it
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Dancing with the feet is one thing, but dancing with the heart is another.
ZPomeroy
Moderator
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1464


Victoria, Australia


« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2010, 06:12:29 AM »

Rock step. I've learned I'm supposed to point my toe on the front leg. For the triple step i've learned a few different ways to do it, both from teachers (most of which I've forgotten) and video. Can the jive experts suggest ways to get the right look; ie the technique on the chasse and the bounce? Would be much appreciated and that's no jive.

csn

I would also like some clarification on the basic movements of the jive. Is this a good example of basics? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncrqnPyTZb0

Zac
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Dance is poetry written for the feet, read by the heart, and destined for the soul.
TangoDancer
Open Bronze
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Posts: 736



« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2010, 08:12:28 AM »

I would also like some clarification on the basic movements of the jive. Is this a good example of basics? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncrqnPyTZb0Zac

No. Good jive is danced up whereas good swing is danced down. It is unfortunate that, today, many dancers dance the jive down (feet too hard on floor), and try to get the up look by lifting the knees. I recently attended a w/s where another teacher was telling the students, "Big knees... big knees!" The problem is that the up is not a look/style, it is an action.

I will try to find a good example, but, in the meantime, reread this. http://partnerdanceonline.com/index.php?topic=353.msg60734#msg60734
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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
albanaich
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 236


« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2010, 09:19:18 AM »

Wrong again Tango Dancer. . . . . . .

The name 'Swing' is from the eight note which is 'swung' or syncopated

http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/ms-primer-3.html

Quote
The most basic element of swing is the swing eighth note. In classical music, a set of eighth notes in 4/4 time are meant to take exactly one half of a beat each. This style is called straight eighth notes. Play a C major scale "C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C" in straight eighth notes. If you have a metronome, set it to 96 beats per minute. Those are quarter notes, "one, two, three, four". Subdivide this in your mind, "one and two and three and four and".

A common approximation to swing eighth notes uses triplets. The basic beats are be subdivided in your mind as "one-and-uh two-and-uh three-and-uh four-and-uh", and you play only on the beat and on the "uh". The first note of every beat will be twice as long as the second. This will sound like Morse Code dash-dot-dash-dot-dash-dot-dash-dot and is far too exaggerated for most jazz purposes. Somewhere in between straight eighth notes (1:1 ratio between first and second note) and triplets (2:1 ratio) lie true swing eighth notes. I cannot give an exact ratio, however, because it varies depending on the tempo and the style of the piece. In general, the faster the tempo, the straighter the eighth notes. Also, pre-bebop era players often use a more exaggerated swing than later performers, even at the same tempo. No matter what the ratio, the second "half" of each beat is usually accented, and beats two and four are usually accented as well. Again, the amount of accent depends on the player and the situation.

There is also the issue of playing behind or ahead of the beat. When Dexter Gordon plays, even the notes that should fall on the beat are usually played a little bit late. This is often called laying back. It can lend a more relaxed feel to the music, whereas playing notes that should fall on the beat a little bit early can have the opposite effect. Bassists often play slightly ahead of the beat, particularly at faster tempos, to keep the music driving forward.

Not all styles of jazz use swing in the same way. Most Latin jazz styles and many fusion and modern styles use straight eighths, or eighth notes that are only slightly swung. Shuffles and some other rock styles use very exaggerated swing. Listen closely to recordings in different styles, paying attention to the differences. Do not be fooled into thinking that swing is a universal constant.

Incidentally, how do you dance the Cha Cha to break on one if the syncopation is on 4 - 5?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 09:38:41 AM by albanaich » Logged
cdnsalsanut
Bronze
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Posts: 256



« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2010, 09:44:30 AM »

Thank you for the technical information. I'm practicing it in front of the tv this morning (my computer is hooked up to my tv) and it's a very different action than I've been doing.

Small world but I found the same youtube video zac alluded to and was using that as a basis for developing my jive.  I'm very visual and agree that it's hard to learn just by reading directions, so if you can suggest another video which demonstrates good jive technique that would be great.

Thanks
csn
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"There are short-cuts to happiness, and dancing is one of them."
~Vicki Baum
albanaich
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 236


« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2010, 01:47:10 PM »

I discovered these on youtube a couple of years ago and bought the full set of DVD's at the enormous price of 5 pounds each. They are 'Karaoke Ballroom' and work quite well as 'demonstrations' of all the main Ballroom dancees.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=down2013#g/u

Slavik it isn't, but it a measure of what is attainable by us lesser mortals.

There are about 30 video's on each DVD, the music, while strict tempo, can be a little strange. . . . . . .this is from the first DVD, the couple doing the Jive are the weakest, particularly the girl. The girl in the pink dress doing the Rumba is a tidy little dancer. They improve significantly as the video's progress.

You can get them on the internet, just search for Ballroom Karaokoe

http://www.latestaudiovideo.com/bakadvd.html

« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:02:21 PM by albanaich » Logged
MusicChica
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1325


« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2010, 01:55:25 PM »


Charles Darwin in particular ...

[etc.  Interesting stuff - but can we put it somewhere else?  I can make a new board even....]

Exactly.  This thread is not meant to be an argument about how jive developed or even what the word "swing" means--it's about how do DANCE jive.  Competitive International Jive, not modern jive or any other form of swing.
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albanaich
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 236


« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2010, 02:10:04 PM »

Quote
Well, a big part of the problem with swing is that comp DJs have gotten away from the original tempo and have been playing it so fast that the competitors have no choice but to dance it with jive technique, because to do it with real swing technique would be impossible at those speeds.

What an odd post considering your post was one of the first to deviate from the Ballroom Jive theme. . . . . .
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MusicChica
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1325


« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2010, 02:12:19 PM »

Wrong again.  That post was referring to ECS as danced as a component of competitive style of American Rhythm.
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albanaich
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 236


« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2010, 02:25:04 PM »

[Content off-topic, inappropriate, and removed by moderator]





« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 10:48:07 PM by cornutt » Logged
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
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Posts: 35013


ee


« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2010, 02:49:49 PM »

Sorry, but I have to correct you again.

Allthough ECS carries the name 'Swing' the Swing dance community don't consider it a Swing dance for a variety of reasons which it was necessary to explain in some detail with reference to many sources on the internet.

It was your misuse or lack of understaniding  of the term 'Swing' that lead to the debate. . . . . .

Had you said East Coast Swing, or ECS, instead of just 'Swing' it would have clarified what you meant. As it is the generic term 'Swing' generally means the non-ballroom influenced verisions of the dance, 'Jive' is usually reserved for the ballroom versions - including ECS.

As has also been pointed Swing music and Swing dance 'Swings' because it is syncopated. Strict tempo dances like ECS and Ballroom Jive don't swing to the music, so calling them 'Swing dances' is wrong both musically and in relation to the true 'Swing' dances.

Can you please try to be less combative?  Declaring others wrong and yourself right is really irritating to me and must be infuriating to those to whom you are pointing the finger.

From now on I want everyone to make it clear that your post is YOUR OPINION because that is all any of them are - even if you quote (your) world authority iit is your world authority and may not be the same as someone elses. 

Anyone who is as agressive, as alb was above with statements such as 'wrong again, .....' will get edited first and possibly suffer more drastic action after.

Capiche? 

Please make my life easy....
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
MusicChica
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1325


« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2010, 05:53:56 PM »

Sorry, but I have to correct you again.

Allthough ECS carries the name 'Swing' the Swing dance community don't consider it a Swing dance for a variety of reasons which it was necessary to explain in some detail with reference to many sources on the internet.

It was your misuse or lack of understaniding  of the term 'Swing' that lead to the debate. . . . . .

You're not correcting anything.  There was nothing wrong with my original post, nor did it lead to any kind of debate.

Funny how the people involved in the discussion at the time--that is, six whole months ago--understood exactly what I meant (indeed, I wasn't even the first to use the term in that way, perhaps you should look at the thread more closely), and the topic was completely inactive for four months before the next post.  You're the only person that's misinterpreting what was said all that time ago.  It was not a debate in any shape or form; merely members having a lighthearted discussion about two similar competitive ballroom dances.  Competitive ballroom dances, as they stand today, not their original forms, where they come from, or the less formal club/street versions that are danced outside of ballroom studios.

Now, if we could please get this thread back on topic, about how jive as an element of International Latin is danced.  In fact, I'll even pose a question for TD based on an earlier post of his--if jive is being danced too "heavy" and down into the floor, how does one create the light, "up" look?  By my own estimation, I think it might have something to do with the contraction through the center on the "up" half of the beats.  Am I on the right track?
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elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35013


ee


« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2010, 06:59:35 PM »

[thanks MC...]
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Vagabond
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1333


~ Mai Più Senza! ~


« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2010, 02:39:56 AM »

Sorry, but I have to correct you again.

Allthough ECS carries the name 'Swing' the Swing dance community don't consider it a Swing dance for a variety of reasons which it was necessary to explain in some detail with reference to many sources on the internet.

It was your misuse or lack of understaniding  of the term 'Swing' that lead to the debate. . . . . .

You're not correcting anything.  There was nothing wrong with my original post, nor did it lead to any kind of debate.

Funny how the people involved in the discussion at the time--that is, six whole months ago--understood exactly what I meant (indeed, I wasn't even the first to use the term in that way, perhaps you should look at the thread more closely), and the topic was completely inactive for four months before the next post.  You're the only person that's misinterpreting what was said all that time ago.  It was not a debate in any shape or form; merely members having a lighthearted discussion about two similar competitive ballroom dances.  Competitive ballroom dances, as they stand today, not their original forms, where they come from, or the less formal club/street versions that are danced outside of ballroom studios.

Now, if we could please get this thread back on topic, about how jive as an element of International Latin is danced.  In fact, I'll even pose a question for TD based on an earlier post of his--if jive is being danced too "heavy" and down into the floor, how does one create the light, "up" look?  By my own estimation, I think it might have something to do with the contraction through the center on the "up" half of the beats.  Am I on the right track?
Hi MC,
I bow my head in shame, having become part of the hijacking of this thread..... it was unintentional on my part, and I do sincerely apologise.

grrrr male hormones
 Lips sealed

« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 02:44:36 AM by Vagabond » Logged

Dancing with the feet is one thing, but dancing with the heart is another.
TangoDancer
Open Bronze
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Posts: 736



« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2010, 04:22:48 AM »

Allthough ECS carries the name 'Swing' the Swing dance community don't consider it a Swing dance for a variety of reasons . . . . . .

As it is the generic term 'Swing' generally means the non-ballroom influenced verisions of the dance, 'Jive' is usually reserved for the ballroom versions - including ECS.

Ah! Last words on this from me..... Perhaps this is a huge part of the terminology problem. What Alba is saying in this post is true, if one lives in the UK. However, I, and perhaps others, are in the americas and canada (still no. america, I guess), and swing typically refers to ECS and its related dances. If alba is speaking of swing as it applies only in his world, then I apologize for the swing references. However, the technical description of how to do the dance is still most accurate.
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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
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