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Author Topic: Lead-Follow-Lead  (Read 6247 times)
elisedance
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ee


« on: April 28, 2009, 04:59:43 AM »

I think this deserves its own topic.

I called it 'Lead-Follow-Lead' for a reason and that is that lead-follow is not a one way lecture it is a continual conversation.  The man clearly has key lead duties that the woman does not - in particular the direction of the dance, selection of steps and the musicallity (another thread!).  However, at the next level, that of actually doing the step and sequence the simple lead-follow concept is replaced by a conversation where both partners contribute driving energy.

How should the man initiate the movement and step?  How does the woman respond?  When is the man following?  Does he do the same things when following as the woman does?

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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2009, 10:02:37 AM »

You could spend a lifetime discussing this.....

However, at a lower level, I have been taught that the follow, as she moves back, always "assumes turn", in that she is prepared to turn as she steps back, but she does not commit, in case the lead does not wish to turn. 

When I am able to do this, it makes me much more responsive.  Interestingly enough with the NP #2, he noticed that I do this in natural turns, but not in right turns.  Very telling on how much time FP spent on natural turns with me. 
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elisedance
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 11:32:29 AM »

thats pretty funny - actually, you need more natural turns to get round the floor anti-clockwise (as in comps) than reverses so think of it as a good thing!

If 'assumes turn' is the same as 'alert' I agree - but taken literally it could make you shift your weight or position prematurely.  I try to get myself into a 'state of being' where my body is responsive to the lead without my (active/left/interfering!!) mind being involved.  As soon as I start to even think where is he going now I'm dead!
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2009, 12:17:14 PM »

thats pretty funny - actually, you need more natural turns to get round the floor anti-clockwise (as in comps) than reverses so think of it as a good thing!

If 'assumes turn' is the same as 'alert' I agree - but taken literally it could make you shift your weight or position prematurely.  I try to get myself into a 'state of being' where my body is responsive to the lead without my (active/left/interfering!!) mind being involved.  As soon as I start to even think where is he going now I'm dead!

I don't think we are on the same page:

As the follow steps back,  she is ready to make a turn if the lead asks for it; she is anticipating, but not commiting to the turn.  At the slightest indication the lead is not going to turn, she assumes whatever step he is leading.  You do not shift your weight or position prematurely.  I wish I could show you what I meant!
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MusicChica
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2009, 01:29:13 PM »

I don't think we are on the same page:

As the follow steps back,  she is ready to make a turn if the lead asks for it; she is anticipating, but not commiting to the turn.  At the slightest indication the lead is not going to turn, she assumes whatever step he is leading.  You do not shift your weight or position prematurely.  I wish I could show you what I meant!

I think you're trying to say that you're ready to turn without actually committing to turn or starting to turn.  Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that just seemed like the clearest way to say it from my perspective.
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dream a little dream
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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2009, 03:09:30 PM »

I don't think we are on the same page:

As the follow steps back,  she is ready to make a turn if the lead asks for it; she is anticipating, but not commiting to the turn.  At the slightest indication the lead is not going to turn, she assumes whatever step he is leading.  You do not shift your weight or position prematurely.  I wish I could show you what I meant!

I think you're trying to say that you're ready to turn without actually committing to turn or starting to turn.  Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that just seemed like the clearest way to say it from my perspective.

Thanks, darlin'.  That was exactly what I was trying to say!
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emeralddancer
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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2009, 03:17:35 PM »

well apaprently I have NOT master the art of anticipating without committing. grrrrrrrrr
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2009, 03:19:19 PM »

Oh by no means have I mastered that.  NP#2 commented on my lack of it this past week. 
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skipper
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2009, 05:54:21 PM »

I only move forward or backward. I NEVER plan to turn. It is the man's job to move off the line or to create the turn. Many times I am VERY surprised at "how I ended up here".

Now with that said, it is a difficult thing to do. Especially since as a lady I have learned my routines and I know where the program is going. Learning to turn my brain off, be responsive and stay in the moment is not so easy!
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elisedance
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2009, 06:31:06 PM »

I feel like skipper.  I don't prepare for anything I'm just there.  And yes, its the same sensation - how did I now end up here?  I'm not perfect at it but I have a pretty good idea where I'm going.
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cornutt
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2009, 08:22:21 PM »

All of the above is good information, but it's still just reactive.  Elise started out asking about the conversational lead, which is a good topic, and if I could do it halfway decently I'd offer some input.   Shocked  I understand the general concept, but thinking about it, I'm not sure that I've actually done it very well.

I think part of the issue is that it works at two (at least) different levels.  There's a more conscious level at which the lead does things like leave room for the follow's self-expression and work with the direction set by the follow in steps and parts of the dance where that works.  But there's also a lower level which I can only compare to musical improvisation, as in jazz: you communicate with your partner on a subconscious level, and you find yourself doing things before you have consciously thought of them.  I've only experienced that in social dancing, where improvisation is the order of the day anyway.  And it doesn't happen every Friday, not by a long shot.  I'd like it to happen more often, needless to say.
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2009, 01:13:08 AM »


I don't think we are on the same page:

As the follow steps back,  she is ready to make a turn if the lead asks for it; she is anticipating, but not commiting to the turn.  At the slightest indication the lead is not going to turn, she assumes whatever step he is leading.  You do not shift your weight or position prematurely.  I wish I could show you what I meant!

It sounds to me like you are talking about “part 3” of the 1st job of the lady’s job of flexibility which is the first of the lady’s 4 jobs. 
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elisedance
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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2009, 06:05:50 AM »

hi dsv - then we have to have parts 1 and 2 of the ladies job 4 to put it in context! 
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Bordertangoman
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« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2009, 07:50:49 AM »

I think this deserves its own topic.

I called it 'Lead-Follow-Lead' for a reason and that is that lead-follow is not a one way lecture it is a continual conversation.  The man clearly has key lead duties that the woman does not - in particular the direction of the dance, selection of steps and the musicallity (another thread!).  However, at the next level, that of actually doing the step and sequence the simple lead-follow concept is replaced by a conversation where both partners contribute driving energy.

How should the man initiate the movement and step?  How does the woman respond?  When is the man following?  Does he do the same things when following as the woman does?



this is the essence of tango why is it here?
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waltzelf
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 200


« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2009, 07:54:15 AM »

Rule of thumb that I've always worked to is that the person going back controls distance and movement, person going forward controls direction. Both people are leading simultaneously.
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