Shoulder Problems due to the "social scene"

[QPO]

I have heard  many people complaining about  shoulder problems and also back problems from women about soreness.. Perhaps it would be great to have a men's workshop about how to hold and prevent injuries..The power is coming from the wrong place

[Dancerette]

Good topic for discussion.

About a year ago, I danced with a fellow who fancies himself a very good dancer. In reality, he knows the steps, but never dances on time with the music. In addition, he thinks a good frame is an iron frame. It's like dancing with an oak board.

One night he asked me to dance at a social event; I generally try to avoid him but I couldn't escape this time (can't remember why, probably didn't want to hurt his feelings)

I tried to follow, I really did, but his movements didn't match the music; the lack of "logic" in what was going to come next did me in. As well, he's the type of lead, who, when you give the necessary tone in your right arm to match his, pushes back even harder with his arm, rather than following the natural moving away of the follower with his centre. Consequently, he "zigged" when he had absolutely no reason to even "zag"; I was caught off guard, couldn't react quickly enough to move away and he totally wrenched HARD, backwards, on my right arm.

I ended up suffering for an entire year with a rotator cuff injury. It still bothers me if I over do it. I never did tell him, I know him very well and he would completely discard the notion that a) he can't dance b) it was caused by something he did.

One of the fellows at my AT lesson said his shoulders were bothering him; he said many of the beginners were like sacks of cement to dance with. He wasn't trying to be uncomplimentary, it was just how he felt.

[SwingWaltz]

Um....don't mean to come out as rude or arrogant, I apologize if I do.

But what makes people think that one should dance socials with beautiful immaculate frame like you would see at a dance competition? I almost never do. Socials are meant to be relaxing. I don't mean relax everything and look like you are slumping or being dragged along. If the lady is short, then drop your hold a bit. If you maintain a straight and nicely levelled shoulder line, but the lady has to be on her toes the entire time, I don't think she's going to be happy nor will it look good.

[Lioness]

Um....don't mean to come out as rude or arrogant, I apologize if I do.

But what makes people think that one should dance socials with beautiful immaculate frame like you would see at a dance competition? I almost never do. Socials are meant to be relaxing. I don't mean relax everything and look like you are slumping or being dragged along. If the lady is short, then drop your hold a bit. If you maintain a straight and nicely levelled shoulder line, but the lady has to be on her toes the entire time, I don't think she's going to be happy nor will it look good.

But there is a difference between relaxing a bit and pushing the lady's shoulder back.

[SwingWaltz]

Um....don't mean to come out as rude or arrogant, I apologize if I do.

But what makes people think that one should dance socials with beautiful immaculate frame like you would see at a dance competition? I almost never do. Socials are meant to be relaxing. I don't mean relax everything and look like you are slumping or being dragged along. If the lady is short, then drop your hold a bit. If you maintain a straight and nicely levelled shoulder line, but the lady has to be on her toes the entire time, I don't think she's going to be happy nor will it look good.

But there is a difference between relaxing a bit and pushing the lady's shoulder back.

That's what I call NOT relaxing.

[Dancerette]

I think I see what you're saying SW and I agree.

I just like to dance in a nice frame, even at a social function; but it sure doesn't have to be competition quality. If I was granted my wish list, I do like that right arm up where it's supposed to be, the left arm not wrenching my right arm out of it's socket and the man's upper body the heck out of my space. My lower back gets sore if the man looms over me.

...but in terms of self preservation  I would rather dance with a man who is a noodle than one who is an oak board; I can fend for myself in a social dance situation as long as I'm not getting manhandled or taken by surprise.

Once the male starts to get overly strong, there's not a lot I can do to defend myself (I'm 115 lbs and 5.4" and strong for a girl, but no match for probably even the weakest guy, as much as I hate to admit it)

[cornutt]

...but in terms of self preservation  I would rather dance with a man who is a noodle than one who is an oak board; I can fend for myself in a social dance situation as long as I'm not getting manhandled or taken by surprise.

I wonder if there's a case of projecting into our own frames what we would like in our partner's frame.  See, I think for most guys it's just the opposite: we'd rather have a woman with a heavy frame (to a point) rather than a woman with a noodle frame.  That's because followers with noodle arms miss so many leads that it's frustrating to dance with them.  It could be that your oak-board guy is accustomed to dancing with a partner who has a heavy frame.

[ZPomeroy]

At a social i much prefer a 'noodle frame' to a heavy frame! it means i can dance much longer. Even though when i go to my local adult social i'm being paid to be there i'm still unable to say anything to people who really lean on me because opf my age. Now if it happens i just drop my arms to where their frame is actually bearable to dance with

Zac

[QPO]

wow you are paid to dance, I would like a job like that...

[cdnsalsanut]

I'm not so sure I'd want to be a paid dance host or instructor.  It's all well and good if your partners are good dancers, not so much fun if they're pushing and pulling you or have unconventional social graces.

My biggest complaint is dancers who are unskilled and haven't learned proper technique and use their partner to balance.  Even experienced partners will, at times, use my body to secure their posiition. Quite often these little tugs and pulls have their affect on my frame and cause me to lose balance or alter my position in some way.

The worst are swing or salsa dancers who, when opening out and closing, use me to pull themselves back into position.  This can be pretty grueling when the partner is too far away, off balance or heavy.

Also in salsa, I avoid doing dips with people I don't know - I've had too many women simply throw their weight on me not realizing or having been trained to support their own weight.  After spending 30 cruises as an unpaid dance host, wrenching my back and seeing some fingers broken and torm tendons, I developed some basic defensive techniques.

1. The reverse noodle arm. When the partner is violently physical, I relax my entire hold and basically offer no resistance at all.  There is nothing for them to push or pull. 

2. The houdini. Be careful to protect your fingers, offer several fingers wrapped tightly together and disconnect when necessary.

3. The secret whisper: "Gently...".  Sotto voice and offered sincerely and with a smile often has the desired result.

4. The merengue defense. Learn merengue, it's a fantastic defense against non-dancers.  It allows the lead to grab both partners hands and control all movement.  For the follow who knows absolutely nothing, this dance works best.  Anyone can do merengue and even the worst dancers can have a lot of fun.

5. The veterans shuffle.  With unruly partners, simply shuffle around the dance floor.  You can combine this technique with the reverse noodle arm for devastating results.

6. The vanashing viennese waltzer. It's one dance where spills and falls most often occur.  I have never seen so many people fall as in this dance.  I avoid doing it with inexperienced dancers, period.  I go get a drink of water, take a bathroom break or simply say I'm resting but will have the next dance if that's ok.

[cornutt]

Concerning the VW: It's my opinion that dancers who don't know the Viennese cross technique should be discouraged from trying to dance VW at a social.  I often see inexperienced dancers who try to do one of two things when they hear a VW being played: they either try to copy the VW motions without doing the cross, or they try to dance American bronze waltz to it, very fast.  The former makes them a hazard to themselves, and the latter makes them a hazard to everyone else. 

When we DJ at our studio, we often suggest substitute dances when music is played for something that not everyone is likely to do.  For example, if we play a bolero, the DJ will usually say, "If you don't know bolero, you can do a slow rumba to this."  If I'm DJ'ing, when I play a VW, I'll say, "This is a dance for experienced dancers.  If you don't know VW, please have a seat and watch and enjoy."  That's the only time I ever say anything like that.

[phoenix13]

I'm not so sure I'd want to be a paid dance host or instructor.  It's all well and good if your partners are good dancers, not so much fun if they're pushing and pulling you or have unconventional social graces.

My biggest complaint is dancers who are unskilled and haven't learned proper technique and use their partner to balance.  Even experienced partners will, at times, use my body to secure their posiition. Quite often these little tugs and pulls have their affect on my frame and cause me to lose balance or alter my position in some way.

The worst are swing or salsa dancers who, when opening out and closing, use me to pull themselves back into position.  This can be pretty grueling when the partner is too far away, off balance or heavy.

Also in salsa, I avoid doing dips with people I don't know - I've had too many women simply throw their weight on me not realizing or having been trained to support their own weight.  After spending 30 cruises as an unpaid dance host, wrenching my back and seeing some fingers broken and torm tendons, I developed some basic defensive techniques.

1. The reverse noodle arm. When the partner is violently physical, I relax my entire hold and basically offer no resistance at all.  There is nothing for them to push or pull.  

2. The houdini. Be careful to protect your fingers, offer several fingers wrapped tightly together and disconnect when necessary.

3. The secret whisper: "Gently...".  Sotto voice and offered sincerely and with a smile often has the desired result.

4. The merengue defense. Learn merengue, it's a fantastic defense against non-dancers.  It allows the lead to grab both partners hands and control all movement.  For the follow who knows absolutely nothing, this dance works best.  Anyone can do merengue and even the worst dancers can have a lot of fun.

5. The veterans shuffle.  With unruly partners, simply shuffle around the dance floor.  You can combine this technique with the reverse noodle arm for devastating results.

6. The vanashing viennese waltzer. It's one dance where spills and falls most often occur.  I have never seen so many people fall as in this dance.  I avoid doing it with inexperienced dancers, period.  I go get a drink of water, take a bathroom break or simply say I'm resting but will have the next dance if that's ok.

This is absolutely hilarious and very good advice, as well.

I have to add (although it's a bit off topic) that I am not a fan of dips or drops, unless I'm dancing with someone I know quite well.   That bit of advice cuts both ways, I think.

And back to what someone (Beachbum?) said earlier, a partner's weight, on the dancefloor, doesn't always correlate to their physical weight.  Some of the heaviest people can be quite light as dancers.

[elisedance]

yea, look at your hustle dancer!

[phoenix13]

This is why I rarely do hustle.  Guys who haven't learned to rock step properly can give you a mighty painful thunk when they rock back -- I think their weight goes to the back of their feet rather than staying forward poised.  And don't get me started on the stiff arms!  Ouchie!

[phoenix13]

So, other than cdn's list and my strategy (run for the hills!)  is there anything else people do to avoid injuries when dancing with newbs and/or the dance challenged?