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Author Topic: Viennese Waltz  (Read 5830 times)
dream a little dream
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« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2009, 01:01:01 PM »

Part of the issue is leg placement.  I'm not letting my instructor get around me.  Considering I learned Viennese in a hot minute last August for a comp, haven't touched it since and am just getting the technique, I'm just pleased I can do any of it at all!
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cornutt
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« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2009, 03:10:05 PM »

That could be too.  I'm not sure how to really describe the proper action -- you kind of have to make yourself be a revolving door.  You provide a "quadrant" for your partner to go through the opening, and you let yourself rotate so that the partner's quadrant revolves and they can go forward.  Getting out of the slot, e.g., as in a WCS left side pass, is not quite the right analogy. 
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dream a little dream
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« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2009, 05:00:47 PM »

I get the theory and understand what my instructor is teaching me but cannot always translate the understanding into doing yet.
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QPO
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« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2009, 02:06:29 AM »

I get the theory and understand what my instructor is teaching me but cannot always translate the understanding into doing yet.

I am with you. but we will start to work on it more when we get back from our national title at the end of june. currently we only have to do waltz and quickstep
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ahowlett1
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 50


« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2009, 07:11:12 AM »

The two common faults in viennese waltz are the following: 1st the application of CBM and 2nd incorrect lowering on the closing action.

VW should use virtually no CBM, there is some natural CBM action, but it should not be applied to the dance as it will cause the dance to rotate excessively and not swing correctly down the floor. Secondly with regard to the common 'popping' problem. It is due to the rise and fall of Modern Waltz being applied. Due to the speed of the music, a 'close/lowering' action should be used. In actual fact if you check the footwork for the back half of any VW, it is whole foot, not Toe/Heel.

Hope this helps.
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QPO
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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2009, 09:59:18 AM »

The two common faults in viennese waltz are the following: 1st the application of CBM and 2nd incorrect lowering on the closing action.

VW should use virtually no CBM, there is some natural CBM action, but it should not be applied to the dance as it will cause the dance to rotate excessively and not swing correctly down the floor. Secondly with regard to the common 'popping' problem. It is due to the rise and fall of Modern Waltz being applied. Due to the speed of the music, a 'close/lowering' action should be used. In actual fact if you check the footwork for the back half of any VW, it is whole foot, not Toe/Heel.

Hope this helps.

this makes sense and I will try it when I get round to doing it. we are currently working on Waltz and QS, but it is a goal of mine to do this dance without getting dizzy and I know it is because I dont do it properly
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emeralddancer
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Nottingham, MD (by way of NJ)


« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2009, 03:03:30 PM »

The two common faults in viennese waltz are the following: 1st the application of CBM and 2nd incorrect lowering on the closing action.

VW should use virtually no CBM, there is some natural CBM action, but it should not be applied to the dance as it will cause the dance to rotate excessively and not swing correctly down the floor. Secondly with regard to the common 'popping' problem. It is due to the rise and fall of Modern Waltz being applied. Due to the speed of the music, a 'close/lowering' action should be used. In actual fact if you check the footwork for the back half of any VW, it is whole foot, not Toe/Heel.

Hope this helps.

will try this tonight at lesson
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TangoDancer
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« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2009, 04:12:34 AM »

The two common faults in viennese waltz are the following: 1st the application of CBM and 2nd incorrect lowering on the closing action.

VW should use virtually no CBM, there is some natural CBM action, but it should not be applied to the dance as it will cause the dance to rotate excessively and not swing correctly down the floor. Secondly with regard to the common 'popping' problem. It is due to the rise and fall of Modern Waltz being applied. Due to the speed of the music, a 'close/lowering' action should be used. In actual fact if you check the footwork for the back half of any VW, it is whole foot, not Toe/Heel.

Hope this helps.
Though I believe to understand what you are saying, I am not certain that I would agree, completely. The outcome is probably the same, and parts of one might encroach upon paerts of teh other, but I find the two most frequent errors in VW are, in order: over-rotating (as you eluded to) and dancing too fast (clipping the closes). Yet, my hesitency is with the usage of CBM. I believe it to be very important, esp. upon finishing, for example, the back half of a left cross turn and continuing into another or even closed change; or, the lady's forward walk R of the right turn.

I agree that a frequent error is over-rotating these, but I do not believe the solution is to not do it. The correction is proper footwork and correct timing. No?
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emeralddancer
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Nottingham, MD (by way of NJ)


« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2009, 11:24:39 AM »

Well last night when we did VW...over turning is ALWAYS a problem for me. Also I noticed that in the first half of the turn before the cross one must "push" of the left leg to create the power and enough momentum going into the cross to bring the lead around. And by push I mean more horizontal verses vertical to not have the "pop".

But I find my biggest faults are over turning, timing and not staying to my left once I do the change step (do not know the name of it) to come down the "other side" of the line of dance.

any of this make sense?
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It is more important who they are as people and only then is it important who they are as dancers.~Marcia Haydee
elisedance
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« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2009, 03:04:20 PM »

I think its important to distinguish over-turning of the step from that of the torso (CBM).  That of the step is common - dancing the illusion of rotation rather than the reality of a linear direction for the steps.   As TT states above, rotation of the torso by the follow (don't know if the lead does this too) in the natural (right) turn greatly facilitates the maintenance of the frame and movement down the step line.
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ahowlett1
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 50


« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2009, 08:35:18 PM »

I would strongly recommend you review your use of CBM in Viennese Waltz. Ove-rotation is caused by the in-correct use of CBM. If one read Harry Smith-Hampshire technique book (the original VW technique) he states that CBM should not be used at all. Whilst I agree that it should not be used, it will occur.
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Some guy
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« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2009, 09:37:28 PM »

I have to agree with ahowlett1.  The conscious use (or even, mere awareness for that matter) of CBM in VW natural and reverse turns made me question my understanding of CBM.  The way I understand, the VW natural and reverse turns don't have it. 
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pruthe
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« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2009, 10:30:03 PM »

Well, I guess I'm confused on use of CBM as latest ISTD V. Waltz manual states CBM occurs on steps 1 and 4 for both Rev and Nat turns. Is it possible to have CBM on steps 1 & 4 and not over-rotate? Maybe it's something that has to be learned?  Huh
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TangoDancer
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« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2009, 11:45:40 PM »

 Cheesy  There is much to discuss here, the most/least of it being the proper meaning or execution of CBM. allow me to just briefly peruse this so that my point is better understood, and perhaps this could be debated in another thread (not that it hasn't been before, and will be again....). I know that the book reads that CBM is directly related to turn, but I strongly disagree. CBM is not a technique; it is a natural body movement used to precipitate other movements (not just a rotation), and can occur as the result of a movement, without having been executed. That being said......

Well last night when we did VW...over turning is ALWAYS a problem for me. Also I noticed that in the first half of the turn before the cross one must "push" of the left leg to create the power and enough momentum going into the cross to bring the lead around.
Here is part of the probleme. Every dance is either a push dance or a pull dance. Waltz is a pull dance. That is to say that the float of the movement is accentuated or found in the pulling of the feet together...not in trying to push into the cross/close. It is, among other possible things, this push that it aiding the over-rotation b/c you are pushing past where you need to be.

Try this exercise to better understand the pull. Fwd L, Fwd R (inside edge of ball of foot), slowly rotating to the R, pull the feet together. Having made a 45* turn, the feet come together perfectly side/side. Repeat the exercise, pulling the feet together on the same straight line, but rotating more (say 3/8). Note that the feet are not side/side, but the L is ahead of the R. Repeat once more, pulling the feet together on the same straight line, but rotating a complete 180*. The feet naturally cross. Thsi is an exercise to understand the concept of waltz being a pull dance. Of course, in reality, we do not rotate that much; the feet get the momentum necessary to cross from the swing generated on the first step, and the natural follow through of the second. The same action occurs on the back half w/ even less rotation.

But I find my biggest faults are over turning, timing and not staying to my left once I do the change step (do not know the name of it) to come down the "other side" of the line of dance.


Practice this. i promise that the over-rotation will diminish. Oh yeah, the change step is called a "R or L closed change".

And ED, yo keep referring to me as TT. Though I know and respect TT, this is TD (like ED, you know?   Cheesy  )
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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
ahowlett1
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 50


« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2009, 08:53:29 AM »

Well, I guess I'm confused on use of CBM as latest ISTD V. Waltz manual states CBM occurs on steps 1 and 4 for both Rev and Nat turns. Is it possible to have CBM on steps 1 & 4 and not over-rotate? Maybe it's something that has to be learned?  Huh

Hi Pruthe.. Your confusion is fairly standard here. It is unfortanate (or fortunate, depending on how you look at it) that whilst our technique states something does occur, it rarely says how much. It is true that CBM does occur, but it isn't a tool to intiate turn, it just happens.
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