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Author Topic: Contact points  (Read 1561 times)
elisedance
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« on: May 16, 2014, 04:37:06 AM »

In another topic (your side) Rugby wrote:
"I agree.  I try and help four or five of the teachers in London and one of the big Aha moments for them in Standard has been knowing and understanding the 9 Positions used in Standard and the 5 (some say 6) contact points between the couples.  With this information it is possiible to understand how two people can move as one and also allows the couple to understand why they are having problems executing moves."

Did you mean 9 possible contact points?  If so how many are used all the time, how many most and how many are only occasional?

I think we can start with three essential ones:
1. Man's left, woman's right hand.
2. Man's right hand, woman's left back
3. Woman's  left hand, man's right upper arm

Anyone like to continue?
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2014, 02:16:08 AM »

I recently saw a video of Mirko and Edita and noticed their connection point was at a much lower point , hip to hip and  not rib cage....area very interesting. she is not my favourite lady dancer I have to say but they move well over the floor
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 07:55:01 AM by elisedance » Logged

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Rugby
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2014, 03:56:08 AM »

What I meant on contact points were the 6 contact points on the body, regardless if on man or woman.
Without having a picture I will try and describe it then below put these with the 9 Positions.  

Contact Lines:

1.) Inside Line on R side of body         (To right of the spine)
2.) Middle Line                                 (Between Inside Line and Outside Line)
3.) Outside Line                               (Outside edge of body as used in Outside Partner)
4.) Back Line                                   (Just behind on the back of the R side of the body)
5.) Inside Line of L side of body           (To left of spine)
6.) Middle Line of L side of body           (Between Inside Line and Outside Line)

If you put these with the 9 Positions of dancing it makes a huge difference in knowing where you are to your partner in the different steps.

9 Positions are:                       Contact Lines are:

1.) Closed Position                           Contact Line is Man's Inside line of R side to Woman's Inside line of R side
2.) Promenade Positions                   Contact Line is Man's Outside line of R side to Woman's Inside line of L side
3.) Contra Promenade Position           Contact Line is Man's Inside line of L side to Woman's Outside Line of R side
4.) Outside Right side Partner            Contact Line is Man's Outside line of R side to Woman's Outside line of R side
5.) Outside Left side Partner              Contact Line is Man's Outside line of L side to Woman's Outside line of L side  
6.) Cross Body Position                     Contact Line is Man's Back line of R side to Woman's Back line of R side
7.) Same Foot Lunge Position             Contact Line is Man's Inside Line of R side to Womans Outside line of L side or Man's Inside line    
                                                   L side to Woman's Inside line of L side                                                  
8.) Fallaway Position                         Contact Line is Man's Outside line of R side in to Woman's Inside line of L side
9.) CBMP to Left In Line with Partner   Contact Line is Man's Middle line of R side to Woman's Middle Line of R side
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 04:01:37 AM by Rugby » Logged

Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
elisedance
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 05:48:38 AM »

Wow how interesting -  then again if I had to think of all them I would probably be too scared to take a step!  The only 'contact points' I am aware of all the time are my left and right hand, the rest happen really as they might.  That doesn't mean I am not aligned to the man in many ways but they are of decreasing importance.   Probably my most important non-hand alignment point is my sternum - but I hesitate to call it a contact point as mentally its not about that at all.
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2014, 11:03:55 AM »

Wow how interesting -  then again if I had to think of all them I would probably be too scared to take a step!  The only 'contact points' I am aware of all the time are my left and right hand, the rest happen really as they might.  That doesn't mean I am not aligned to the man in many ways but they are of decreasing importance.   Probably my most important non-hand alignment point is my sternum - but I hesitate to call it a contact point as mentally its not about that at all.

I agree, how useful would it be to a practitioner to know this information?  Quick: how many contact points do you have driving a car? You had to think about it didn't you? Did any normal driver, at any point during driving lessons or in all the years or driving since then, need to know that?
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2014, 04:47:20 AM »

When you are learning, especailly teaching someone to go into promenade to show and know that the girl is behind the man's right hip connecting at her inside left hip is not useful information?  That the lady is behind the man's hip being the "contact" and they form a shallow V creating a "promenade position" is not worth mentioning or knowing?  It's okay that they come out hip to hip and both facing square on to LOD, which, due to lack of information happens in most cases?

In locks or any outside partner position you would not want to know or show where the man and woman contact each other or is it okay for them to be hip to hip and being flat because knowing where the connection is, is not useful?

Same foot lunge or contra checks is it okay for the girl to be overturned away from the guy or the guy to be overturned because knowing where they contact and knowing the position is not worth knowing?

Knowing the different "positions and contact points" makes a tremendous difference, ask Mirko and Edita, as QPO noticed they certainly think it is important.  So does Luca, Johnathan and Ieva Pauksana who are the sources where I originally started to learn body mechanics.  Shirley Ballas menioned how shocked she was at how few teachers really knew the body mechanics and positions in Latin.  She wondered how they could achieve good results without knowing this.  I am sure she would say that this applies to Standard as well.
If I just want drive a car around town I would not care about the details but if I wanted to become a racecar driver you can bet I would want to know how my car worked, not just that it worked.   When I competed in Dressage with the horses I learned to be a rider and a trainer though I had to train ten hours a day for many years.  Most thought it was not that important until the National body called me to be a Protege to help get to the Olympics and not them.  If I just want to social dance around the floor then I may not care about these things either but if you want to compete or teach, especially competitiors then it is vital. just as much of what DSV has told us would be.
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
elisedance
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2014, 06:50:08 AM »

Perhaps the difference is in how you approach dance?  Some people like a very technical approach that helps them train each part of their body.  Others - obviously like me and SG - like to just let those things train themselves as much as possible (I add the latter because there are stylistic things in all performance types that must be learned - hand shaping visual frame etc.  But for me dancing learning these has always been an extra chore and not a part of how I dance...
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2014, 02:29:17 PM »

There's a huge difference between consciously knowing and unconsciously knowing.  Most champions were unconscious competents before they had to teach, and hence, had to know.  Unfortunately, they impart the knowledge backwards, and their students usually don't come anywhere close to their level of competence.  

Knowing the different "positions and contact points" makes a tremendous difference, ask Mirko and Edita, as QPO noticed they certainly think it is important.  So does Luca, Johnathan and Ieva Pauksana who are the sources where I originally started to learn body mechanics.  

Ah, none of them are Body Schoolers, so that makes sense that their approach is polar-opposite to where my response was coming from.  

When you are learning, especailly teaching someone to go into promenade to show and know that the girl is behind the man's right hip connecting at her inside left hip is not useful information?  That the lady is behind the man's hip being the "contact" and they form a shallow V creating a "promenade position" is not worth mentioning or knowing?  It's okay that they come out hip to hip and both facing square on to LOD, which, due to lack of information happens in most cases?
In locks or any outside partner position you would not want to know or show where the man and woman contact each other or is it okay for them to be hip to hip and being flat because knowing where the connection is, is not useful?

Everything you’re describing is the end result and not the action required to create the end result. I might agree that it’s useful for the teacher to know, but why would the student need to know unless the student is planning to teach very soon?  Learning how to do and learning how to teach are two very separate things.  The teacher would need to know the end result so that the student can be evaluated and corrections can be made to the student’s actions if necessary.  

Same foot lunge or contra checks is it okay for the girl to be overturned away from the guy or the guy to be overturned because knowing where they contact and knowing the position is not worth knowing?

More results, not the actions necessary to create the proper end result.  If the student knows the actions necessary to create the end result, the end result will always be correct, the student need not know any details about the end result.  A good result is something that happens when the actions are done correctly.  All the student needs to know is the execution.  
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 08:53:22 PM »

As long as what you are doing works for you then that is fine, we are all different on our path or at different stages in dance.  If you like what you are doing then stick with it.  For myself and many of the others who are now working these ideas the biggest comment I hear is why didn't we learn this earlier!!!!  I wish I had started out with these principles rather than 15 years into competing.  Luca & Loraine Baricchi push that the principles of dancing/body mechanics are imperative for everyone, especially competitiors, if they wish to be successful. 

Here is a mini workshop with Edite Danuite speaking about the some of the principles of dancing. It may be useful for some people so I will post it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhPH5DoDUVo 

There is a better one with Luca and Loraine but it just gets into it then stops after 4 min. so unless I can find the whole one no use posting it.
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 10:21:21 PM »

There are definitely different approaches - and they come to different outcomes and it all depend on how you see dance and how it works best for you.
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2014, 10:55:20 PM »

Exactly.  Everyone learns differently and also you have to go with what works for you.  It may change many times depending on where you are in your dancing and what you need at that time.  In the long run it is good to explore all options to see what fits you.  Some of our instructors I didn't agree with but tried it anyway.  I figured who knows what I can learn rather than just dismissing it out of hand which I did at the start.  When I opened my mind to new things I was surprised how really everyone is saying the same thing but just in a different way 2+2 = 4, 3+1 =4 or 1+1+1+1=4.  I realized that it is good to know more than one way and also if you teach you have to be able to explain things different ways depending on the student.  People can be sure that the way they come to 4 is the only way but really they are all but different paths to the same well.  We must pick the path that works for us at that moment.   Of course I would be the one to take the fourth option, 1+3=4 LOL   
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
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