partnerdanceonline.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 23, 2014, 05:00:29 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
A lot of people are visiting Smiley Smiley
Undecided Undecided but not many are posting....
please say hi Cheesy
116187 Posts in 1853 Topics by 221 Members
Latest Member: cleverpete
* Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  partnerdanceonline.com
|-+  Partner Dancing
| |-+  Dancesport
| | |-+  Amateur (Moderators: Rugby, ZPomeroy)
| | | |-+  Beyond the career track, does 'Amateur' really mean 'rich people's game'?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Print
Author Topic: Beyond the career track, does 'Amateur' really mean 'rich people's game'?  (Read 1600 times)
phoenix13
Gold
***
Posts: 3359



« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 09:01:19 PM »

I think that sometimes people hear and believe the rumors about inferior instruction at franchises so often that they don't see the other side of the picture.
Logged

Dona nobis pacem.
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34896


ee


« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 09:04:26 PM »

I think that sometimes people hear and believe the rumors about inferior instruction at franchises so often that they don't see the other side of the picture.
and sometimes vice versa Undecided
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
phoenix13
Gold
***
Posts: 3359



« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2013, 09:52:09 AM »

What's funny is that, when I came across this thread title this morning, I got  a completely different impression -- amateur meaning am/am.  No.  As a rule, that is not a rich person's game, although I suppose it is very expensive, at the top echelons.  But could just an ordinary person compete am/am without breaking the bank?  Yes.  I know several people who do.

I also know some exceptionally level headed pro-ams who set a budget and compete to the maximum their budget will allow, without breaking the bank.  (I suspect our ttd is one of these, from things she has said in other threads here.)   I also know or know of quite a few people who have huge amounts of resources and who have no problem with spending lots and lots of money of pro-am competition.

Eh.  I don't begrudge the wealthy the experience.  I wish the whole structure was such that the playing field was more even and there were more opportunities for people with fewer resources.  But it is what it is. *shrug*

Interestingly, someone brought up the same topic on DF recently. (Way after us. Hah!)  Someone over there made the point that top level competitive dance (am, pro, or pro-am) is not significantly different from other top level competitive sports, such as ice-skating, golf, horseback riding, boating, etc.  Competitive sports are expensive, period, so it's up to the competitior to decide what level of competition they can afford and stick to that.
Logged

Dona nobis pacem.
ttd
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 631


« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2013, 06:24:55 PM »

Thanks. I appreciate the compliment. However, while I'm not a millionaire, I'm still financially comfortable enough that I can spend money on an expensive competitive sport after all other bills have been paid. When I do have to choose between spending money on dance-related things vs. spending on non-dance related things, my choices are more along the lines - do I get a new refrigerator or a "new" resale dress. I don't have to choose between buying a new pair of dance shoes or buying groceries. One has to have some discretionary funds in order to do competitive ballroom or any other sport in their free time - I really don't see how you can get around this, I can't imagine someone whose sole source of income is a job which pays minimum wage having such discretionary funds.
Logged
QPO
reg mods
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20763


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2013, 08:16:14 PM »

Thanks. I appreciate the compliment. However, while I'm not a millionaire, I'm still financially comfortable enough that I can spend money on an expensive competitive sport after all other bills have been paid. When I do have to choose between spending money on dance-related things vs. spending on non-dance related things, my choices are more along the lines - do I get a new refrigerator or a "new" resale dress. I don't have to choose between buying a new pair of dance shoes or buying groceries. One has to have some discretionary funds in order to do competitive ballroom or any other sport in their free time - I really don't see how you can get around this, I can't imagine someone whose sole source of income is a job which pays minimum wage having such discretionary funds.


I am the sme as you. I know what I am prepared to spend and spend no more. we travel alot but we also then use it as a holiday, short that it may be.... Tongue
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
ttd
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 631


« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2013, 12:46:17 AM »

I think the best way to approach this topic is from the following point of view: how far an X amount of money can go in this sport? If an am-am couple has just $1000 a year they can spend on dancing, how much can they expect to accomplish on that (assuming they're very resourceful)? What about $5000? $10000? etc.

Honestly, I have no idea how far $1000 would go in am-am competitive world. It won't go very far in pro-am world.
Logged
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34896


ee


« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2013, 02:57:27 AM »

Great way to put it ttd!  But I think you should do it by dancer, not couple.  Thus how much would you get as a dancer if you did pro-am or AM for 1K?

AM here: Lessons $50, practise 1 hours $6 (floor fee).  So one lesson and 6 practices a week (total 7 hrs dancing) would be  $86; 4 weeks, $344
Costume $2K depreciated over 4 years - $500

Local comp costs - Fees, two entries - $50, incidentals $50. - 100

So an AM dancer could train for a month and do one local comp for almost exactly $1,000.

A national (driving) comp [Hotel 2 nights (shared) 200; car gas etc 50; food etc 150 - $400] would be about $1400.

Can you do the same estimate for a pro-am dancer?  I could but I'd love to hear your budget.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 04:06:08 AM by elisedance » Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
QPO
reg mods
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20763


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2013, 02:57:58 AM »

true, we have two lessons a week, one in each style we do, the rest we have to do on our own with practicing. I wont spend anymore, if we have visiting coaches then we drop our normal teacher, I will not go above it. If we go to a competition then it s a minimum of $1,000 of a trip normally we only do five trips a year, so I think we spend about 10-15,000 on our hobby for two people. including all the attire etc.

If one of us should become unemployed then we would re-evaluate those costs, but at the moment it is affordable for our budget.
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
ttd
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 631


« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2013, 10:36:34 AM »

Well, assuming you live in the same city as the comp and won't need a hotel room, the budget to dance bronze standard with all 5 dances would be something like this:

Ticket to the ballroom $20. Entries 5 * 35 = $175 for single dances + $70 for the scholarship. So far $265.

Pro fees: depends on a pro, really. But let's say its $250 to dance just this little. His expenses are a big variable, too, but lets say in this situation your share of his expenses is $150. So $400 to the pro. 

Then you need an outfit and shoes. I really don't know what are the prices on the lowest end, but I sold my very first Chinese made standard dress for $120. If one lucks out with a similar resale, they can get their costume budget under $300.

Then you need gas & parking, lets put $50 here. I really don't understand budgeting for food here, because you have to eat regardless, it should be already in your general budget, but lets put $10 for some power bars and an energy drink.

Add 10 lessons before the comp, at the average local rate it would be $700 (including floor fees)

So, 265 + 400 + 300 + 50 + 10 + 700 = $1725

I think this is the absolute minimum budget. It's also very unrealistic. I don't know if there is anyone who would go to a pro-am comp and do so few entries,  and the pro expenses are dependent on how many students he has. I don't calculate my costs this way.
Logged
QPO
reg mods
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20763


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2013, 01:57:09 AM »

do you share the pro costings with other competitors especially if he dances with another in a different age bracket. I understand why PRO/Am would be so expensive, the Pro is not going to be out of pocket. What would be annoying though if he would go anyway without doing the PRO/Am  and be prepared to spend that money but he is a business I understand that.
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34896


ee


« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2013, 03:44:41 AM »

do you share the pro costings with other competitors especially if he dances with another in a different age bracket. I understand why PRO/Am would be so expensive, the Pro is not going to be out of pocket. What would be annoying though if he would go anyway without doing the PRO/Am  and be prepared to spend that money but he is a business I understand that.
I've seen all variations - pros that are incredibly generous (one that had no dance fees, he only shared his travel costs; his rationale was that this was payback for all the support during the year - it paid back for him too, he had so many entries he won the 'top coach' award of several $thousands) and ones that are, frankly, crooks - for example charging each student with their full travel and hotel costs.  The seamy side of pro-am is that there is no oversight organization leaving it to 'buyer beware'. 

Its an interesting question whether the pro should charge costs if they are going to be there anyway.  I actually think that that's irrelevant - and trying to adjust fees according to the pro's 'intent' is really impossible to handle consistently.  The best system I've experienced is an (honest) breakdown of costs - travel, hotel, (divided by students), entry and per-dance fee for each student.  An altenative is a simply flat -rate fee for the comp with an 'extra' fee per heat.  The worst is pros that charge you per dance fees and then also jack up the entry fees.  A lot of comps encourage this by only revealing the entry fee/dance to the pros.  Since the pro has already charged a 'per dance' fee, this dishonesty is, in my opinion, extortion. 
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34896


ee


« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2013, 04:05:23 AM »

I'm going to repeat my analysis above for what I experienced as a pro-am.

Lessons $80.  3 hrs per week (less total time needed than AM/AM) ; 4 weeks,                                                      $960
Costume $2K depreciated over 4 years -                                                                                                           $500

Local comp - Fees, two entries (5 dance) - $170 incidentals $50;                                                                        $220
pro dance fees $300, pro incidentals 200;                                                                                                         $500
(this is an under-estimate because most comps require you to do single dances in addition to the multis;
actual costs are >$1000 for the competition alone)

So an pro-AM dancer could train for a month and do one local comp for ~$2,160; about twice that for an AM in an AM/AM partnership.  Its consistent with TTD's low-ball estimate above.

A national comp would be the same plus travel/hotel/food for AM and the pro - (the latter either as a fixed fee or split between the
students - most of my pro-am comps were as the only student - but neither of my nice pros charged the full costs).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 04:07:25 AM by elisedance » Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
ttd
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 631


« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2013, 08:31:09 AM »

I was trying to figure out an absolute minimum amount. For myself, I don't have to take such minimalistic approach.
Logged
QPO
reg mods
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20763


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2013, 09:41:33 AM »

Indeed but I am glad at this stage I do am/am but that is only because my partner is my husband, if I did not have him I wont be dancing, there is no-one locally to dance with.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 09:56:31 AM by QPO » Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34896


ee


« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 10:45:17 AM »

I was trying to figure out an absolute minimum amount. For myself, I don't have to take such minimalistic approach.

I did understand - but thought it useful to also give a sort of average (actually still a low-ball) comparison: its the sort of budget level I was working with, although to be honest I never thought about it so matter-of-factly.  I wonder if that's an essential part of being a pro-am competitor, you have to feel its worth it at any costs.

Scary, bit like an addiction - but no different I suppose than if you are hooked on golf or skiing or...
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Pages: 1 [2] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!