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Author Topic: The woman dances to make the man look good; the man does the same.  (Read 1907 times)
elisedance
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ee


« on: December 10, 2011, 09:14:33 AM »

Sorry to sound cynical - but I've just realized that I think this is true of just about every (non-pro) man I've danced with.  Its obviously not true of every man but the other kind has eluded me.

When I thought of this it struck me as something of an epiphany - and (if I actually had a choice) it would be a major factor in the selection of a partner.  Of course most partnership searches fall into the 'beggars can't be chooser's' class so its moot...

What do you guys think?
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ttd
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 08:12:46 PM »

I've heard this a few times - the man is a frame, the lady is a painting or a similar comparison (vase & flower, for example). No matter how great the painting is, if you put it into a sucky frame, it will look sucky. Reverse is true, as well, if you put a sucky painting into a beautiful frame, the result will still be sucky. But this analogy fails in one way, because there is more a really good leader can do with a lower level follower, than the other way around.

I occasionally dance with my husband, who is considerably below my level as a dancer. I feel like there is very little I can do to make the partnership look presentable, because as soon as I crank up my intensity, things fall apart. At times I feel like all I can do with him is take baby-sized steps around the floor and make sure I keep my posture, and don't do anything that would freak him out. When I dance with my pro, who is obviously a much better dancer than I am, I can and am expected to do a lot more to make us look good as a partnership.
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elisedance
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2011, 11:45:35 PM »

I was getting more at 'whats in the man's head'.  I've been rather alarmed to conclude 'its the man'.  The frame/picture analogy suggests the man is thinking about presenting the woman - but I think a lot of men are thinking about presenting themselves and hopiing that the woman will not screw it up.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
SwingWaltz
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2011, 02:30:00 AM »

The lady is the picture, the man is the frame!

Most people see a beautiful picture, but real dancers know it takes a good frame to show off a beautiful picture.
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2011, 06:30:05 AM »

The lady is the picture, the man is the frame!

Most people see a beautiful picture, but real dancers know it takes a good frame to show off a beautiful picture.
er, did you read the first post? Roll Eyes
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2011, 01:19:14 PM »

Agreed, a lot of men do try to present themselves as the picture and the frame.... so the lady might as well take a seat and relax as she is no longer required.  Of course, the man needs a lady because otherwise what he's doing won't be categorized as ballroom dancing.  He needs the extra body.  That's like picking up a hitchhiker so that you can use the carpool lane.  On the flip side, in my experience, there are far too many women who try to be the frame or do the jobs of the man.  For example, if the lady so much as "thinks" about her "frame", poof!: there goes the picture.  That's when I as a guy feel like I should sit out the dance watch her dance (frame and all) rather than participate.  If I wanted to dance with a man, I would ask a man to dance.  I can count on one hand the girls residing in my city that I've run into at numerous socials that know how to be a picture.  Later I found out that they're all DSV's sister's students.   
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 01:20:56 PM by Some guy » Logged
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2011, 02:12:31 PM »

Agreed, a lot of men do try to present themselves as the picture and the frame.... so the lady might as well take a seat and relax as she is no longer required.  Of course, the man needs a lady because otherwise what he's doing won't be categorized as ballroom dancing.  He needs the extra body.  That's like picking up a hitchhiker so that you can use the carpool lane.  On the flip side, in my experience, there are far too many women who try to be the frame or do the jobs of the man.  For example, if the lady so much as "thinks" about her "frame", poof!: there goes the picture.  That's when I as a guy feel like I should sit out the dance watch her dance (frame and all) rather than participate.  If I wanted to dance with a man, I would ask a man to dance.  I can count on one hand the girls residing in my city that I've run into at numerous socials that know how to be a picture.  Later I found out that they're all DSV's sister's students.   

Could be words from the mouth of the new teacher I'm working with... but I wonder if DSV would approve...  No frame - just relax and he will create whatever frame is necessary.  Wow. 

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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2011, 02:47:22 PM »

Could be words from the mouth of the new teacher I'm working with... but I wonder if DSV would approve...  No frame - just relax and he will create whatever frame is necessary.  Wow. 
You're getting it. The picture and frame are very different and mutually exclusive. 
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drj
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2011, 04:08:42 PM »

Agreed, a lot of men do try to present themselves as the picture and the frame.... so the lady might as well take a seat and relax as she is no longer required.  Of course, the man needs a lady because otherwise what he's doing won't be categorized as ballroom dancing.  He needs the extra body.  

As my instructor puts it, the kind of leader you're describing needs the extra body so he won't look like an idiot, dancing by himself. Needless to say, my instructor is not among these leaders. Or I'd have been gone long ago.

They're so easy to see, the self-involved leads. They're a nightmare to dance with. Hello? I am not a potted plant?
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ancora imparo
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2011, 04:17:04 PM »

Could be words from the mouth of the new teacher I'm working with... but I wonder if DSV would approve...  No frame - just relax and he will create whatever frame is necessary.  Wow.  
You're getting it. The picture and frame are very different and mutually exclusive.  
It was nothing short of amazing.  He told me to just relax and look past his ear.  Next thing I knew we had a frame without effort.  When we danced he never mentioned a step nor uttered any instruction other than: now relax your arms.  Relax your body.  Just relax: I don't need your power, it will kick in as we need it - just think of relaxing.  And off we went doing steps I have no idea what.  Once in tango he did say 'do you know the chase' and  I mumbled 'of course' and I belive next thing I knew we had chased into a series of pivots and something - who knows what.  

This is what I dreamed of - but every lead that I have danced with, including all the pros, have denied that its possible.  However, I know it is because I experienced it once with Joe Jenkins.  Bos in action I think - though neither would have known it by that name but both were trained in England by the same source Wink
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2011, 04:01:11 PM »

Agreed, a lot of men do try to present themselves as the picture and the frame.... so the lady might as well take a seat and relax as she is no longer required.  Of course, the man needs a lady because otherwise what he's doing won't be categorized as ballroom dancing.  He needs the extra body.  That's like picking up a hitchhiker so that you can use the carpool lane.  On the flip side, in my experience, there are far too many women who try to be the frame or do the jobs of the man.  For example, if the lady so much as "thinks" about her "frame", poof!: there goes the picture.  That's when I as a guy feel like I should sit out the dance watch her dance (frame and all) rather than participate.  If I wanted to dance with a man, I would ask a man to dance.  I can count on one hand the girls residing in my city that I've run into at numerous socials that know how to be a picture.  Later I found out that they're all DSV's sister's students.   

Could be words from the mouth of the new teacher I'm working with... but I wonder if DSV would approve...  No frame - just relax and he will create whatever frame is necessary.  Wow. 



I totally agree….it is not the lady’s job to create or be the frame. A good lady is the picture and let the Man take care of the frame.

DSV

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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2011, 04:09:29 PM »

He told me to just relax and look past his ear.

That is the words of Janet Gleave.

Next thing I knew we had a frame without effort.  When we danced he never mentioned a step nor uttered any instruction other than: now relax your arms.  Relax your body.  Just relax: I don't need your power, it will kick in as we need it - just think of relaxing. 

That is the words of all the great teachers in England.

And off we went doing steps I have no idea what.  Once in tango he did say 'do you know the chase' and  I mumbled 'of course' and I belive next thing I knew we had chased into a series of pivots and something - who knows what. 

He used a trick that all great teachers use….by talking to you to distract you from thinking.
 
This is what I dreamed of - but every lead that I have danced with, including all the pros, have denied that its possible.  However, I know it is because I experienced it once with Joe Jenkins.  Bos in action I think - though neither would have known it by that name but both were trained in England by the same source Wink

Sounds like you experienced dancing with a true Body or Square School dancer. 

It is heavenly… isn’t it?

DSV



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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2011, 05:15:16 PM »

He told me to just relax and look past his ear.

That is the words of Janet Gleave.

Next thing I knew we had a frame without effort.  When we danced he never mentioned a step nor uttered any instruction other than: now relax your arms.  Relax your body.  Just relax: I don't need your power, it will kick in as we need it - just think of relaxing. 

That is the words of all the great teachers in England.

And off we went doing steps I have no idea what.  Once in tango he did say 'do you know the chase' and  I mumbled 'of course' and I belive next thing I knew we had chased into a series of pivots and something - who knows what. 

He used a trick that all great teachers use….by talking to you to distract you from thinking.
 
This is what I dreamed of - but every lead that I have danced with, including all the pros, have denied that its possible.  However, I know it is because I experienced it once with Joe Jenkins.  Bos in action I think - though neither would have known it by that name but both were trained in England by the same source Wink

Sounds like you experienced dancing with a true Body or Square School dancer. 

It is heavenly… isn’t it?

DSV





If I said I was agog I would be only saying 1%.  And to think a few days ago I was thinking of quitting ballroom.  The universe moves in strange ways - when you let it. eh? 
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2011, 05:35:15 PM »

I totally agree. Wink
 
When you let the Universe take care of "the how", you end up getting what you want but in ways you couldn't even begin to imagine.

DSV
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
Alice
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2011, 07:19:10 PM »

This is what I dreamed of - but every lead that I have danced with, including all the pros, have denied that its possible.

Elise,  I know what you mean.  I've taken ballroom in the past but never really clicked with it because there was so much emphasis on steps.  I'd been swing dancing for a while and had had the experience of a great lead sending me into figures I'd never learned before, so I thought it must be possible in ballroom, but never met anyone who could confirm it... until 3 months ago, that is.  Now, I can't get enough and have been a little absent in the Houston swing scene of late because of it! 
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"The journey between what you once were and who you are now becoming is where the dance of life really takes place."  -Barbara DeAngelis
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