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Author Topic: Stereotyping in judging  (Read 1736 times)
elisedance
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ee


« on: April 17, 2011, 04:30:56 PM »

This came up in a conversation with a couple at our last competition.

What if you started competing at a humble starter level and gradually improved to the point where you make the top three at competitions outside your local competition area but you still get judged very poorly in your own.  Is it possible that the judges have just got so used to marking you down that you can never get a fresh look?

If so, what would you recommend such a couple should do?  Here are some possibilities: trudge on till they notice (meaning you have to be much better than your peers); stop competing for a while (locally) so that they will look at you afresh after, say, a 9 month gap?  Take lessons from some of the judges mainly so that they get a chance to see your strengths?  Or, try to talk to an official to see if the matter can be raised behind closed doors?

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skipper
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 12:39:25 AM »

NEVER NEVER talk to a judge so it can "be discussed behind closed doors!!

Depending on your mind set and finances #1 choice would be to take lessons with coaches that judge you frequently. Listen to their "complaints" about your dancing---listen to the fix and try to do it their way on the lesson.Later take that information to your regular and trusted teacher---he/she will help you.

#2 Choose carefully, but keep plodding along---especially if you have done #1
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elisedance
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 03:39:05 AM »

NEVER NEVER talk to a judge so it can "be discussed behind closed doors!!

I think thats good advice...

Depending on your mind set and finances #1 choice would be to take lessons with coaches that judge you frequently. Listen to their "complaints" about your dancing---listen to the fix and try to do it their way on the lesson.Later take that information to your regular and trusted teacher---he/she will help you.

Istn't this a bit distateful?  Even if done sincerely, doesn't it feed the idea that you have to take lessons from judges to get marked?  And isn't that really paying for marks?  I know there are two ways of looking at it but this one is ever present...
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QPO
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 09:50:39 AM »

We have had this problem ourselves. each time we go away to interstate competitions we do very well and locally well the results can certainly be questionable... We just feel that the interstate wins are more important and mean more. Dancing locally is just practice.  We have a huge competition here on the week-end but the good thing is that we will be having a lot of interstate judges coming, so I think that will even out the results.
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Rugby
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 10:49:31 PM »

I like to throw the high mark and low mark out and average the others to give me a general idea where we are.
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Some guy
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 11:09:55 PM »

This is a really interesting topic.  Would love to see what everyone says.
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QPO
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 12:46:04 AM »

What would be great is if the judge involved id not have anything to do with the competitors ( not possible) as then I wonder if their judgng would be more objective?
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 04:42:53 AM »

One couple I know go out and fall all over the place - but still come first in their dances.  I can not figure out what it is they are doing to compensate not actually dancing....
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Some guy
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 04:19:21 PM »

Maybe they're "falling" better than you.     Grin
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Rugby
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 06:32:44 PM »

One couple I know go out and fall all over the place - but still come first in their dances.  I can not figure out what it is they are doing to compensate not actually dancing....

 They are trying to move but all they are doing is running like mad with their legs going like the road runner which makes them fall everywhere.  So many teachers have pointed them out and asked how in h**l they do well?
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
catsmeow
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2011, 09:38:40 PM »

Interesting to think what trumps what in a judges mind when comparing couples. For instance, lets say one couple moves very well through their standing foot, leg or whatever and has good timing to boot and another couple looks stiffer and appears somewhat offtime in all their dances BUT has noticeably better posture and shows less fatigue. Who would probably win? My guess is the latter even though they appear to be not "dancing"  as well .  Presentation of the vertical wins over the glide despite the timing. If a couple cant ooze confidence through the man's posture and woman's willowy flexibility then they are doomed to the also rans.
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2011, 10:51:06 PM »

Interesting to think what trumps what in a judges mind when comparing couples. For instance, lets say one couple moves very well through their standing foot, leg or whatever and has good timing to boot and another couple looks stiffer and appears somewhat offtime in all their dances BUT has noticeably better posture and shows less fatigue. Who would probably win? My guess is the latter even though they appear to be not "dancing"  as well .  Presentation of the vertical wins over the glide despite the timing. If a couple cant ooze confidence through the man's posture and woman's willowy flexibility then they are doomed to the also rans.

I think you nailed it CM...
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

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ttd
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 03:28:26 PM »

Do smaller competitions use same judges year after year? I know it's definitely not the case with the comps I've been to multiple times, they vary the panel every year. However, judges have a tendency to stay within their "home" area, unless it's a major event, like OSB. So that they don't have to travel too far, I guess. As a result, competitors who stick to their "home" area as well, are not seen by judges from other areas.

Also, I think the judges are more likely to look at people they know first. This can be to one's advantage or disadvantage, depending on whether you're a couple who starts out great but then deteriorates, or one who gets better as the dance goes on.
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elisedance
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 10:19:45 PM »

We have a lot of juding inbreeding Wink - the organizer of one competition invites the organizer of the next to judge and vice-versa.  So, yes, we are seen by the same panel over and over.  The big danger is to get stereotyped as bad as then its hard to dig yourself out.  I suppose the couples who are sterotyped as good have the opposite problem - its sometimes illuminating when the compete out of province and loose to the couples that cam 5th or 6th at home...
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Rugby
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 11:11:30 PM »

A problem is a lack of judges, the cost to bring in outside judges or the validity of some the judges.  This creates the problem of trying to recylce the ones you do have which becomes a problem in itself.  You may get new people becoming judges but if the majority are not dancers, didn't compete or didn't get to a high level, though they pass their judging tests, they don't get hired because the competitors feel they should not be judged by someone who doesn't dance or dances at a lower level then those they are judging.  The only way out is too encourage the upper Champ level dancers or Pros to get their judging papers to increase the pool size but I don't think many want to go for it. 
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
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