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Author Topic: Goal-oriented vs. Process-oriented learning  (Read 2208 times)
millitiz
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 220


« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2011, 12:42:54 AM »

I find it really interesting to know how other people learn as there is a lot of variation.  Plus there are all the adult learning/child learning theories.  I think process and goal are interdependent, which comes first - you need the process to get the goal and the goal to get the process??

I like to know how everything is done & why.  This applies to dance as well but at the same time I remember the feeling so I know if it is what I want it to be in practice, I hadnt' thought of this in anyway other than process but guess that is a mix.

The danger of only having a goal is that you might never achieve it without explanation/help/details.  For example at a past studio, there was very little detail and a lot goals.  The result was a funny bunch of standard dancers that contorted their toplines into positions that impeded their dancing and could not have been comfortable with no advice or correction on how to actually achieve the desired topline.  Similarly in social classes there were lots of "steps" taught with few people dancing.

I think people use the phrases goal/process slightly differently.

IMHO, the goal of dancing as an art is simple: dancing is to express beauty - whether in terms of balance, harmony, dynamic, power, etc.

Yes, you have to define your goal before you can try to reach it! And yes, you define the goal of dancing nicely, but the goal of dancesport is quite different.  It is to be percieved by judges to be dancing better.  And theirin lies the conundrum....

I used the word goal as "the big picture" or the "picture (in an abstract way)." Which seems to be slightly different from what the OP described. And I think when I read pinkstuff's post, s/he probably use the word slightly differently from me - because I couldn't just replace the goals by pictures in the paragraph (at least it wouldn't make too much sense to me). And hence my comment.

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StageKat
Intermediate Bronze

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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2011, 03:20:56 AM »

I think I use a process to get to a goal... In actuality It depends on what I'm trying to learn... although having a goal, helps me push through the process better.

I have a new pro now I and I think he may be a goal oriented type. He's old to dancing but new to teaching and he's mentioned in his own way (or at least what I'm interpreting) that if I don't have a goal of competition then what's the point... so I think I'm going to either explore the option of a more focus based style of learning... or...go on the pro search. We've only had three lessons together so I'm not giving up yet.

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elisedance
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2011, 03:47:40 AM »

I think I use a process to get to a goal... In actuality It depends on what I'm trying to learn... although having a goal, helps me push through the process better.

I have a new pro now I and I think he may be a goal oriented type. He's old to dancing but new to teaching and he's mentioned in his own way (or at least what I'm interpreting) that if I don't have a goal of competition then what's the point... so I think I'm going to either explore the option of a more focus based style of learning... or...go on the pro search. We've only had three lessons together so I'm not giving up yet.


You might do well to stick with this one for more rather than less.  Don't get deluded that you will learn more or faster by someone who teaches how to break down steps (though that gives you the illusion of getting your money's worth).  Its far more important for us ladies to get how to feel where the man is and respond.  Once you know the very basics of foot action they really take care of themselves if you respond and always seek your ballance points.

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Spiral
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 182



« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2011, 04:01:20 AM »


(snip...)   Its far more important for us ladies to get how to feel where the man is and respond.  Once you know the very basics of foot action they really take care of themselves if you respond and always seek your ballance points.



I find that it's more true for ballroom, but less so for latin.
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elisedance
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2011, 05:04:10 AM »


(snip...)   Its far more important for us ladies to get how to feel where the man is and respond.  Once you know the very basics of foot action they really take care of themselves if you respond and always seek your ballance points.



I find that it's more true for ballroom, but less so for latin.
Thats interesting (I'm rather latin deprived) so what do you rate as most important for latin? 
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
cdnsalsanut
Bronze
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Posts: 256



« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2011, 11:43:20 AM »

I agree with the comment about knowing the basics and learning foot action.

My former partner and i have very different learning styles but we accomodated both in our lessons. Our learning style in lessons was mostly thus: we would be given a choreography and then after learning footwork would go back to learning the basics of that style. Often learning the basics would be applied to specific choreography in the routine, however, the basic principles are the basics and the idea is they can be applied to that particular dance all over the place. We are forever working on our basics, making them better.

One comment about learning styles and how we applied in our lessons: I learn visually. And I'm not a fast learner. I spent a number of lessons with different teachers who would have me go over the same choreography again and again and again in the lesson. The lessons would grind to a halt - I would end up frustrated and we would only learn one or two things each lesson. Having started ballroom when I turned 50 I decided I don't have 20 years to learn this stuff and after a while I decided to turn the tables and teach my teachers how i wanted to be taught.

I need as much information from lessons as possible. Then, i go away and practice for umpteen hours, hopefully get what they were trying to teach and when we return we move on again. From time to time the teacher looks at the routine as it is developing and will pick apart pieces they don't like. Then we go through the process again.

My partner learns in the lessons, by having the teacher adjust her and explain and demonstrate on the spot. I don't. I'm a slloooowwwww learner. I don't retain much of what I learn. So what I do is have the coach demonstrate the choreography. My part, lady's part, with my partner. Then I try with her a few times, Then i videotape the parts and teacher and partner couple demo. Then we move on. In this way our lessons progress quickly giving me much information quickly, which I can then go away and practice till my feet hurt. This format has worked well for me. Plus I have a library of 5 to 15 sec video clips of my teacher demonstrating various finer points of either basic technique or particular moves in my routine.  Which I can review at my leisure.

Other things we do: we practice 2 hrs a day 6 days a week. We have specific protocols for practice. For example we do latin one day, std the next. Not the two in the same day. We run through the routine ie cha cha, twice to music. Then once slowly no music. Move by move. Then we debrief and focus on what is giiving us problems and practice that for 5 to 10 mins or until we feel we've made it better. Then we move to the next of the 5 dances in the style we're doing that day. Anything we're stuck on we leave after trying to solve it ourselves and bring to the coach at the next lesson. Our lessons begin with him/her addressing our concerns that week. Usually we only bring 2 or 3 issues.

The bottom line is: we're still focussing on the basics in all our lessons. Now that we've made some headway in our choreographies it allows us to go back and really focus on improving our overall dancing basics.

Today I start lessons with a new partner. It's going to be interesting to see how our styles meld together, or not. I wish we could just do the vulcan mind meld - it would simplify everything.
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"There are short-cuts to happiness, and dancing is one of them."
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elisedance
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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2011, 04:56:29 PM »

...
Today I start lessons with a new partner. It's going to be interesting to see how our styles meld together, or not. I wish we could just do the vulcan mind meld - it would simplify everything.

Wow!  When do we get to meet the lucky lady?  Congrats on finding a new partner so quickly.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
GreenEyes26
Mind Workers
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 110



« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2011, 08:04:25 PM »


The danger of only having a goal is that you might never achieve it without explanation/help/details.  For example at a past studio, there was very little detail and a lot goals.  The result was a funny bunch of standard dancers that contorted their toplines into positions that impeded their dancing and could not have been comfortable with no advice or correction on how to actually achieve the desired topline.  Similarly in social classes there were lots of "steps" taught with few people dancing.

Very good point.
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"As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.”

 ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
cdnsalsanut
Bronze
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Posts: 256



« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2011, 08:35:20 PM »

We will begin competing in latin as soon as we are ready. She's a championship level dancer in both styles so so it may not take long. We'll see, no big rush but in two sessions we've already covered a number of dances. She's a very quick study (unlike me LOL). We're hoping May. We went out to CM cha cha today and saw a lot of ppl we know, competative dancers like horace and agnes and zoran and marija, so it'll be no big secret.

You probably know her. Zubeyda Kutuk. A very nice dancer indeed, I'm very lucky but it's early days and we're trying out. However she is jumping in with both feet, a very good sign. We'll be training full steam ahead and firing on all cylinders: lots of lessons, lots of practice etc. So...looking good. Hopefully we'll see you soon.

We will compete championship level.
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"There are short-cuts to happiness, and dancing is one of them."
~Vicki Baum
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2011, 09:20:30 PM »

I do know her - at least by sight, she used to dance with Asif.  She is an excellent dancer, I'm sure you will do very well (and yes, you will have to dance in Championship).  Good luck!
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
QPO
reg mods
Continental Champion
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Posts: 20824


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2011, 02:04:54 AM »

We will begin competing in latin as soon as we are ready. She's a championship level dancer in both styles so so it may not take long. We'll see, no big rush but in two sessions we've already covered a number of dances. She's a very quick study (unlike me LOL). We're hoping May. We went out to CM cha cha today and saw a lot of ppl we know, competative dancers like horace and agnes and zoran and marija, so it'll be no big secret.

You probably know her. Zubeyda Kutuk. A very nice dancer indeed, I'm very lucky but it's early days and we're trying out. However she is jumping in with both feet, a very good sign. We'll be training full steam ahead and firing on all cylinders: lots of lessons, lots of practice etc. So...looking good. Hopefully we'll see you soon.

We will compete championship level.

Good Luck to you both! I am sure it will work out, you both sound very committed.
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Dance Forum
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
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Posts: 1464


« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2011, 05:11:50 PM »

I find that it's more true for ballroom, but less so for latin.
How so?
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QPO
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Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2011, 03:20:32 AM »

bedsides dancing apart more often there still must be an awarenes of where your partner is?
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Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
dancingirldancing
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 102


« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2011, 09:49:36 PM »

I need to know how to get to where I am to be.

For example if someone told me to drive from Melbourne to Wagga Wagga I most probably will get lost.

However if I have a road map or even better a sat nav then I will get there a lot quicker.

The process to me is like a road map. Then again I am an engineer I need to know how something works first before I can do it.

Probably other people learn differently.
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Rugby
Moderator
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2011, 10:11:51 PM »

I'm the same.  I have to know how something works, the mechanics behind it, before I can do it.
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
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