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| | | |-+  A couple are cheating on the advancement rules - what do you do?
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Author Topic: A couple are cheating on the advancement rules - what do you do?  (Read 2559 times)
elisedance
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« on: January 30, 2011, 09:43:06 PM »

Most dance organizations have a set of rules as to when a couple can or must (or can not) move up to a higher level.  But what if you knew of couple that cheated on the rules - did not move up when they should have or were not honest about having abided by the rules.

Do you let it be?  Or do you out them...
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QPO
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 04:12:40 AM »

hmmmm I would be included to discuss it with my coach and leave it to them.....

In Australia every couple has the right to elevate one level in each age category...but that can be good but I think mostly it is bad!...If you are not in a position to travel then being able to elevate if there is never enough for you t compete again is OK. Your coach has to certify that yu are capable of dancing at that higher level.
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elisedance
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 04:19:50 AM »

Here the issue is the opposite.  Anyone can elevate - but you can't go back.  However, if you dance in one catagory you can also 'dance up' into the next one to get your feet wet and gain experience at the new level. 

To retain your lower status you have to dance that as well as the higher one (if it is offered, if not you are OK just dancing the higher).  If you happen to win the higher level with a full slate (6 couples) final then you are automatically advanced.

In quebec if you just get into the final you are advanced.  This can be a bit silly since if there are 8 couples (necessitating a semi final here) and make the final, coming 6th - you have been elevated for beating just two couples.
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samina
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 05:59:51 PM »

if you are sure of it, you could just ask them directly why they haven't advanced yet...simple as that!
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catsmeow
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 07:29:13 PM »

Its not easy to prove a couple are cheating. Supposedly there has to be 6 couples in a heat and the couple has to win at least three times to change levels. However if you win more than once at the same comp it still only counts as one win. A couple might appear to be winning more than their share but still not cheating. Is this the situation?
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Rugby
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 07:44:30 PM »

There are some couples that stay because they are not completely sure if they have won out or not and some stay well past winning out because they are wanting to hang out.  They have actually won at least 5 official times, but will stay until they are told they have to move up or their fellow competitors complain.  I question one couple that were going to go into the last comp ee that I am fairly sure have won officially about five times but won't move up because they don't do so well in Champ.  It means so much to them to win that they will stay at the lower level as long as possible.  I don't know if the couple has had this happen but we won out but had already entered a competition at the previous level, since we didn't expect to have won out.  When I checked they let it go since the entry was in but said that it would not be allowed again.  Perhaps this couple have done this but who knows.  If they go in to the level again I would certainly approach them and ask them if they knew that they should not be in that level.  This way you are impying and letting them know you are watching without accusing them.   
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elisedance
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2011, 02:48:55 AM »

CM and R - I wasn't actually referring to that particular rule, - I know that can be confusing.  The one I was referring to was in the last post:


Here the issue is the opposite.  Anyone can elevate - but you can't go back.  However, if you dance in one catagory you can also 'dance up' into the next one to get your feet wet and gain experience at the new level. 

To retain your lower status you have to dance that as well as the higher one (if it is offered, if not you are OK just dancing the higher). 

So what if the couple enters their lower one - but then leaves the competition before it is held.  Thus, on paper they look like they did it but in reality they did not?
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elisedance
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2011, 02:51:07 AM »

if you are sure of it, you could just ask them directly why they haven't advanced yet...simple as that!

I agree entirely.  Suffice it to say I did exactly that and the outcome was not very satisfying.  What then?  Drop it?
But what if it means it affects our (or one of our other dance couple's) progress?
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catsmeow
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2011, 08:08:49 AM »

Can you alert your fellow competitiors about the situation? Perhaps more than one gentle probe is necessary. On the other hand, I recall asking a prechamp couple a few months ago if they were going to move up and he said no they didnt have enough wins.  That was a blatant non truth as I knew how many wins they had. I would not drop the issue but you need help from OADA.
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elisedance
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2011, 10:38:06 AM »

But I think the underlying question is is it worth it?  Mostly there is no impact - except of course a couple that continues to take first placings and delays that honour from their peers. this one does not seem worth the negativity that ebsues a complaint.
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samina
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2011, 10:45:06 AM »

if you are sure of it, you could just ask them directly why they haven't advanced yet...simple as that!

I agree entirely.  Suffice it to say I did exactly that and the outcome was not very satisfying.  What then?  Drop it?
But what if it means it affects our (or one of our other dance couple's) progress?
dance better?  Tongue Cool

<<ducks Grin>>
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elisedance
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 10:58:08 AM »

if you are sure of it, you could just ask them directly why they haven't advanced yet...simple as that!

I agree entirely.  Suffice it to say I did exactly that and the outcome was not very satisfying.  What then?  Drop it?
But what if it means it affects our (or one of our other dance couple's) progress?
dance better?  Tongue Cool

<<ducks Grin>>
Love it.  But isn't that the whole point of catagories - for couples that have advanced to move up?  Its one of the crazy things about pro-am - a couple (am and his/her pro) can compete at scholarship (championship) at one competition and move down to bronze at the next, basically to ensure they get first place.  In pro-am there is a lot of resentment but no action (and could be discussed in that area) but in AM the norm is well established.  The lower levels are for people who are less advanced.  Period.  And hence, rules are in place to ensure at least some force to advance.

This particular rule is a bit more byzantine but it does have its purpose - to prevent exactly the above where a couple competes at championship at local (lower level) comps and does not move down to an easier level when there is more competition.

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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

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elisedance
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2011, 11:00:00 AM »

[This topic has strayed too much towards a particular case that triggered the discussion (and I have to admit to most of the fault) so please lets stay on the general issue of whether you say/do anything or not.]
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Rugby
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 12:05:38 PM »

I think you played it the right way and went to the couple to talk to them first.  If they refuse to play by the rules time and again because they just have to win at all costs then you have no choice but to take it further.  I would send the amateur organization an email saying that you are wondering if the wins rule is still in place since it is confusing to notice that a particular couple has officially won many times yet still are in the same category.

We had a couple just like you described come running up to us after our last win to tell us they have been tracking our wins and wanted to tell us that we are not allowed to compete in that level again.  Odd but they too have also officially won out, which we pointed out, but refuse to move up.  Since they could hardly wait to run over to tell us that we had to go then this shows they are quite aware of the rules.  I am going to watch this couple at the next comp and if they win I will let the amateur organization know about it and I think you should as well with your couple.

These couples are stealing what could be an official win for another couple and that is not fair if they do it time after time.  Once, twice maybe but after that forget it.
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
Rugby
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 12:07:43 PM »

In your poll you need a "tell the couple and if they offend again report them".
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
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