Swing

[Some guy]

We've been working more on sway and while I know I should not be but it has made me confused about swing again.  sway is side to side while swing is really forward-back (with some rotational) but if you do a strong sway it seems to interfere with your capacity to swing....

Well, to define it, swing is movement from a fixed point, yes?  Are we using sway as a synonym for shape?  In that case, well, sway has no fixed point.  Isn't the result of swing ...sway?  Hence the reason Body Schoolers don't throw in any additional sway or shape.  The Swing pretty much creates everything: movement, rise and fall (if you picture a pendulum), and the resulting body shape (the pendulum is no longer vertical at the top of each movement).  So you're right Elise, if you try to sway, the way I'm picturing it, it's pretty impossible to swing.    

[Some guy]

Here's my two cents:
The man can do one of two things to create swing and the resulting sway/shape:

1) he can swing the lady's hips (my favorite... but most ladies don't free up their hips enough for me to swing them) or as I've heard it put: "play with the lady".  
2) he can swing his own ribcage (less enjoyable, but produces a really clear lead for ladies that like to "follow" rather than play) or as I've heard it put: "play with yourself (!!!)".

For the first point above, since he's not holding onto the lady's hips, when the man swing's the lady's hips in standard frame the action is unconsciously initiated by the rib-cage swing.  So in both 1 and 2, there's a swing of the man's rib cage, except that in 1, he's enjoying his lady too much to really feel his rib-cage creating the necessary action.

For the second point above, there is a very conscious swing of the man's own rib-cage and almost no direct concern for the lady's hips.    

Number 1, to me, is the most fun since I can really play with the lady and engage her instead of blocking her out and playing with myself (!!!).

[millitiz]

I have to say, it is a very exciting topic.

So earlier, I have heard from my coaches that said: yea, I am swinging my hips (and legs, for that matter). And I was like  ? What are you talking about? I never felt that way??? But what ever, if I am doing it, I am not going to argue against them

Lately, I am relearning the whole thing again (due to my little, ok, not so little break). And I felt that I have a better understanding of it. And the most fascinating part of it was to play with it: by putting different amount of energy into the swing action, I could travel different amount of distance, which would create different speed (physics 101: velocity = distance/time...or was it speed? Arggggg. And I am a physics major...QQ). And therefore making the dancing more musical and fun. Also, it is much easier to match the follow - just by twisting the energy me putting into the swing.

For me at least, the swing, awkward enough, starts from the ground, or the floor. I know this sounds very different from just about everyone...

But if you think about it:
On one hand, it is very similar to the fact that there is no way on earth you can lift yourself up (without any external help). Similarly, if you want to move, you would have to stand on the floor (and hopefully that there is some friction) in order to move.

Also, I felt that it makes sense - I am also using the whole standing leg - the floor, the feet, the ankle, the muscles on my leg, and finally, my hip to generate the power. That kinda make sense, right? After all, there are only that many muscles around your hip. By using other muscles, it is much easier to create larger movement if needed.

Earlier in my training, I fixed my posture, and I felt the groundedness. I know, or at least I have heard that being grounded could improve the movement, and dancing in general. Which in theory, it made sense to me. And I did feel that tone in my leg, and I could feel the floor (or even into the floor). However, I didn't know how to use this energy. I was a bit frustrated: it was like me knowing that I have a million dollars in my bank, but I don't have the access to that account. By learning the whole thing, everything starts to make sense. Now I can spend my "a million dollars in my bank."

I agree that the difference between swing and sway is one is forward and back, and the other is side way. Although, the more I learned, the more I felt that sway is rather a result of swing - or maybe I should use the word extension.

Ok, I am ready duck for the fire

[Some guy]

Ha ha!  I don't you think you'll get any fire from this site.  The whole purposes here is to ask questions.   

[Some guy]

So earlier, I have heard from my coaches that said: yea, I am swinging my hips (and legs, for that matter). And I was like  ? What are you talking about? I never felt that way??? But what ever, if I am doing it, I am not going to argue against them

Good idea!   

Lately, I am relearning the whole thing again (due to my little, ok, not so little break). And I felt that I have a better understanding of it. And the most fascinating part of it was to play with it

There it is! That magic word: "play". 

For me at least, the swing, awkward enough, starts from the ground, or the floor. I know this sounds very different from just about everyone...

But if you think about it:
On one hand, it is very similar to the fact that there is no way on earth you can lift yourself up (without any external help). Similarly, if you want to move, you would have to stand on the floor (and hopefully that there is some friction) in order to move.

I agree on both counts, but ask yourself this: "is it possible to play with my partner's hips and swing my partner's hips like a pendulum"?

Also, I felt that it makes sense - I am also using the whole standing leg - the floor, the feet, the ankle, the muscles on my leg, and finally, my hip to generate the power. That kinda make sense, right? After all, there are only that many muscles around your hip. By using other muscles, it is much easier to create larger movement if needed.

Yes, but now you're describing the result, not the action required to get the result you just described.  Try playing with and swinging your partner's hips around.  See what happens.  Don't try to put your own swing or shape in.  If your partner doesn't like to be played with, then forget her hips and your hips: swing your ribcage like a pendulum and forget about legs, feet, foot placement, muscles, etc. 

Earlier in my training, I fixed my posture, and I felt the groundedness. I know, or at least I have heard that being grounded could improve the movement, and dancing in general.

The ground is your friend.  Yes, it's a good thing to be one with it.

Which in theory, it made sense to me. And I did feel that tone in my leg, and I could feel the floor (or even into the floor). However, I didn't know how to use this energy. I was a bit frustrated: it was like me knowing that I have a million dollars in my bank, but I don't have the access to that account. By learning the whole thing, everything starts to make sense. Now I can spend my "a million dollars in my bank."

Good description.  You learned how to use the ground and energy before you were 7 years old.  So don't think any more into it, or even try to feel the ground anymore.  You mastered that when you were 7 years old too.

I agree that the difference between swing and sway is one is forward and back, and the other is side way.

Not really.  Read Dora Satya Veda's posts on Body School principles where she describes swing/sway/shape. 

You're asking a lot of questions, and attempting to discover things for yourself.  You've taken a big step.  Kudos!  There'll be plenty of people to help you out here. 

[Spiral]

[snip] .. (physics 101: velocity = distance/time...or was it speed? Arggggg. And I am a physics major...QQ) .. [snip]

Velocity is just a fancy word for speed. Acceleration  is the fun one, it's what makes everything go 'Woosh!' 

[socialdancer]

A pendulum swings.      /
A tree sways.           /

If you take a snapshot in time can you tell which is which?

[elisedance]

A pendulum swings.      /
A tree sways.           /

If you take a snapshot in time can you tell which is which?

By a 'snapshot in time' I take it you mean a photo?  I think it would depend on where in its swing/sway cycle the structure was.  If at one end or the other, sure.

[millitiz]

So earlier, I have heard from my coaches that said: yea, I am swinging my hips (and legs, for that matter). And I was like  ? What are you talking about? I never felt that way??? But what ever, if I am doing it, I am not going to argue against them

Good idea!   

Lately, I am relearning the whole thing again (due to my little, ok, not so little break). And I felt that I have a better understanding of it. And the most fascinating part of it was to play with it

There it is! That magic word: "play". 

Maybe I should be a bit more specific - I am playing with myself (oh, dirty dirty me ), or playing with the music, if that makes sense. As for swinging my partners' hips - I might be getting on something wrong, but while earlier I thought about it and did it, lately I don't. Why should I do works that she should have done it herself? That is so much extra work. If she swings, great. If she doesn't, well, normally that would be in a social or beginner group setting - a few minutes of not doing all of my stuff is ok. If she swings less than I do, I could just tone down my energy to match hers.

So I guess I am not getting what you were trying to say.

For me at least, the swing, awkward enough, starts from the ground, or the floor. I know this sounds very different from just about everyone...

But if you think about it:
On one hand, it is very similar to the fact that there is no way on earth you can lift yourself up (without any external help). Similarly, if you want to move, you would have to stand on the floor (and hopefully that there is some friction) in order to move.

I agree on both counts, but ask yourself this: "is it possible to play with my partner's hips and swing my partner's hips like a pendulum"?

Sorry, I know this is a serious board - but "playing with my partner's hips"... . Ok, back to my serious face. I thought and heard about the pendulum analog - where is your fixed point in pendulum in your body? Because what I used to do/think was that my fixed point in space was about my ribcage. But sometimes I felt that I would put my head backward - which kills the whole thing. Lately I only keep it flex until my lower back (or my fixed point is somewhere around there)...So did I misinterpret what you said again?

Also, I felt that it makes sense - I am also using the whole standing leg - the floor, the feet, the ankle, the muscles on my leg, and finally, my hip to generate the power. That kinda make sense, right? After all, there are only that many muscles around your hip. By using other muscles, it is much easier to create larger movement if needed.

Yes, but now you're describing the result, not the action required to get the result you just described.  Try playing with and swinging your partner's hips around.  See what happens.  Don't try to put your own swing or shape in.  If your partner doesn't like to be played with, then forget her hips and your hips: swing your ribcage like a pendulum and forget about legs, feet, foot placement, muscles, etc. 

Earlier in my training, I fixed my posture, and I felt the groundedness. I know, or at least I have heard that being grounded could improve the movement, and dancing in general.

The ground is your friend.  Yes, it's a good thing to be one with it.

Which in theory, it made sense to me. And I did feel that tone in my leg, and I could feel the floor (or even into the floor). However, I didn't know how to use this energy. I was a bit frustrated: it was like me knowing that I have a million dollars in my bank, but I don't have the access to that account. By learning the whole thing, everything starts to make sense. Now I can spend my "a million dollars in my bank."

Good description.  You learned how to use the ground and energy before you were 7 years old.  So don't think any more into it, or even try to feel the ground anymore.  You mastered that when you were 7 years old too.

I have to say, I disagree with this slightly. We might have learned it by 7 - but mastering it? I am not quite sure. There is using the ground and there is using the ground. I had some martial art training background - and we spent a lot of time to be more grounded.

I agree that the difference between swing and sway is one is forward and back, and the other is side way.

Not really.  Read Dora Satya Veda's posts on Body School principles where she describes swing/sway/shape. 

Well, that is slightly out of context - unless you meant the whole paragraph is not really correct - which I would like to discuss further then.

[Some guy]

Maybe I should be a bit more specific - I am playing with myself (oh, dirty dirty me ), or playing with the music, if that makes sense. As for swinging my partners' hips - I might be getting on something wrong, but while earlier I thought about it and did it, lately I don't. Why should I do works that she should have done it herself? That is so much extra work. If she swings, great. If she doesn't, well, normally that would be in a social or beginner group setting - a few minutes of not doing all of my stuff is ok. If she swings less than I do, I could just tone down my energy to match hers.

So I guess I am not getting what you were trying to say.

Playing with yourself (careful, you'll go blind) and playing with the music makes perfect sense.  Well, I guess there are two things you can do: swing your partners' hips, or swing your own ribcage.  If she swings her own hips, then all's well.

Sorry, I know this is a serious board - but "playing with my partner's hips"... . Ok, back to my serious face.

Are you saying you wouldn't want to play with your partner's hips?  Personally, that's my favorite part about dancing.  

I thought and heard about the pendulum analog - where is your fixed point in pendulum in your body? Because what I used to do/think was that my fixed point in space was about my ribcage. But sometimes I felt that I would put my head backward - which kills the whole thing. Lately I only keep it flex until my lower back (or my fixed point is somewhere around there)...So did I misinterpret what you said again?

Imagine yourself on a swing.  The fixed point is above your head.  See how it gets complicated to explain this stuff over text?  In person, it's ridiculously simple.  Trust me.

Good description.  You learned how to use the ground and energy before you were 7 years old.  So don't think any more into it, or even try to feel the ground anymore.  You mastered that when you were 7 years old too.

I have to say, I disagree with this slightly. We might have learned it by 7 - but mastering it? I am not quite sure.

Were there many occasions after you were 7 years old that you found your legs weren't where they were supposed to be and you fell to the ground?  If not, then you mastered how to use the floor.  There is a chance that a lot has changed since you were 7 years old.  As an adult, we learn all sorts of bad habits and posture imposed on us by society and personal preferences.  We learn all sorts of wrong and dangerous ways of using our feet.  One of the biggest problems is that our centers almost cease to exist.  You might have to consider how you did things back when you first learned to use the floor.  A good body school teacher can teach you how to strip away all the excess and go back to the elements.

I agree that the difference between swing and sway is one is forward and back, and the other is side way.

Not really.  Read Dora Satya Veda's posts on Body School principles where she describes swing/sway/shape.  

Well, that is slightly out of context - unless you meant the whole paragraph is not really correct - which I would like to discuss further then.

It's not really important if you can explain what you mean, as long as you can do it and let your body use swing and sway the way it would like to.