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Author Topic: Pro/Am & Am/Am rules  (Read 4653 times)
malakawa
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« on: April 17, 2009, 01:06:06 PM »

I am putting this e-mail, that I got today from the NDCA - here. So that everybody can read it.

Notice to all NDCA Registrants - "Amateur Singles" Pro/Am Division for "Amateur Championship" couples not allowed?

A question has been raised concerning the potential for "Amateur Championship" competitors to be allowed to dance as the "Professional" partner in Pro/Am competitions, as well as what some have now called an "Amateur Singles" division.

The purpose of this message is to clarify this question.

The NDCA rule book is very specific in addressing this issue, and clearly prohibits any "Amateur Championship" competitor from (a) dancing as the professional partner in Pro/Am competitions, and (b) participating in any "Student/Student" event as either partner.

The "Single Division" is for Junior competitors only and they may only dance with another junior or youth competitor. This particular division is intended to facilitate young girls who cannot find boys to dance with and cannot afford Pro-Am and it is not intended for Amateurs who wish to compete as a Pro-Am teacher while still remaining Amateur.

There is no allowance for an "Amateur Singles" division, and there are no exceptions to these rules for any "Amateur Championship" competitors.

For your information I have listed below four of the NDCA rules that address this issue in various ways.

Thanks!!!

Lee Wakefield, Ballroom Director

RULE II.A.1.

PROFESSIONAL: A Professional Dancer is one who is any or all of the following (anyone studying for or taking a theory exam will not be deemed a professional unless they declare themselves such as defined below):

a.     Registered as a Professional with the NDCA.

b.     A Staff Member employed by a Dance Studio to teach.

c.     One who partners a Pro/Am Student Dancer or Registered Amateur in Pro/Am Competitions.

d.     Any person who declares himself or herself a Professional by word or deed (Examples: serving as a hired Partner, or participating in Professional Competitions or Team Matches).

RULE II.A.2.

AMATEUR: An Amateur is one for whom dancing is strictly an avocation, a recreational activity, or a competitive sport.  An amateur dancer may become a professional in the following manner:

(1)    By the declaration of such

(2)    By competing against other professionals in an NDCA sanctioned Open Professional or Rising Star event

(3)    By acting as a professional partner in an NDCA sanctioned Pro/Amateur competition event

b.     Pre-Teen, Junior, Youth and Adult Amateur dancers must be registered with the NDCA, unless they are participating only in pro/am events.

(1)    NOTE: With the exception of honor dances and formation teams, amateurs are not permitted to demonstrate at NDCA events.

RULE II.A.4.

STUDENT/STUDENT: The term "Student/Student" refers to a Pro/Am Student Dancer partnering another Pro/Am Student Dancer in heats which are danced simultaneously with Pro/Am events at NDCA sanctioned competitions and championships.

a.     Student/Student events are an accommodation for Pro/Am Student Dancers, and are open only to one adult Pro/Am Student Dancer partnering with another adult Pro/Am Student Dancer - both of whom must comply with the requirements as stated in the definition of a Pro/Am Student Dancer.  Student/Student events are not open to amateur dancers who compete in Amateur Competitions and/or Championships at the "Open Amateur" proficiency level as defined in section X. RULES FOR AMATEUR COMPETITORS.

RULE II.B.4.

STUDENT/STUDENT & PRO/AM STUDENT DANCER EVENTS FOR PRE-TEEN, JUNIOR AND YOUTH

a.     When Pre-Teen, Junior and Youth events are offered for Student/Student and/or Pro/Am Student Dancers the age divisions must be those that are listed in the "Rules for Amateur Competitions" section.

b.     When Pre-Teen, Junior and Youth events are offered for Student/Student and/or Pro/Am Student Dancers the dress and/or costuming rules must be those that are listed in the "Rules for Amateur Competitions" section.

c.     When Pre-Teen events are offered for Student/Student and/or Pro/Am Student Dancers the syllabus rules must be those that are listed in the "Rules for Amateur Competitions" section.

 

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emeralddancer
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2009, 01:43:25 PM »

Can you dumb this down so I can understand what NDCA is saying? I am confused! Huh
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malakawa
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2009, 02:25:54 PM »

Amateur couples are not aloud to dance pro/am competitions.

for example: if you are a high level amateur dancer, and you are teaching in some studio, you can't dance with your student on a competitions.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 01:38:48 PM by malakawa » Logged

Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards and in high heels.

It takes an athlete to dance, but an artist to be a dancer.
elisedance
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2009, 04:06:55 PM »

Amateurs can now teach but they can not compete with the people they are teaching.  I think this was the biggest issue with the whole question of ams teaching at all - if Ams could do pro-am there would be in essence no difference between pros and ams anymore.  Its really about the right of pros to make money from the pro-am system. 

I actually think its a nice ballance - ams can make money to sustain their dancing while pros can make more money to sustain their careers.
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standarddancer
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2009, 03:46:13 AM »

Amateur couples are not aloud to dance pro/am competitions.

for example: if you are a high level amateur dancer, and you are teaching in some studio, you can dance with your student on a competitions.

I think you mean "you CAN'T dance with your student on a competitions" ?  Wink
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standarddancer
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 04:04:57 AM »

I think there are good and bad things regarding this champ am can't dance with their students at comp rule. Good thing is to protect the pros for making their living.

It's interesing that the rules allow partnerless junior girls who can't afford pro-am to dance with a higher level junior or youth boy, but what about poor but talented partnerless adult girls who can't afford pro-am? stop competing? I know someone working hard and with talent but can't find partner in US, have difficulty to afford pro-am on a regular basis, all her try-outs in USA are way below her level, thus even she enter pre-champ level with her "partners", she could not get the placement she desire. I know she's thinking of bringing in high level European boys into USA, but European boys all check results on internet before even considering a tryout. If the rule allow this poor girl to pay a higher level champ dancer at a rate she could afford to even compete at a small champ level or pre-champ comps, she might get a much more decent comp results profile for attracting better tryouts in Europe. Dancesportinfo doesn't track pro-am results, so I think the champ ams are hurt for certain extent not able to make this money, but they still okay for balancing their budget to get some extra cash to pay for their expensive coaching lessons, but the people really hurt is partnerless non-junior girls who can't afford pro-am but with a desire to compete and excel.

Just my observation and 2 cents.
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ttd
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 10:44:21 AM »

Wasn't there a rule which basically said that am halves of a pro-am partnership cannot teach?
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standarddancer
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 12:16:11 PM »

Wasn't there a rule which basically said that am halves of a pro-am partnership cannot teach?

that's right.
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ttd
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2009, 03:34:51 PM »

Wasn't there a rule which basically said that am halves of a pro-am partnership cannot teach?

that's right.
I don't see it in the original post, though.
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malakawa
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Posts: 830



« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2009, 04:25:05 PM »

Wasn't there a rule which basically said that am halves of a pro-am partnership cannot teach?

that's right.
I don't see it in the original post, though.

the original post was the e-mail that i got from the ballroom director.  Wink
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Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards and in high heels.

It takes an athlete to dance, but an artist to be a dancer.
ttd
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Posts: 642


« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2009, 11:18:52 PM »

Wasn't there a rule which basically said that am halves of a pro-am partnership cannot teach?

that's right.
I don't see it in the original post, though.

the original post was the e-mail that i got from the ballroom director.  Wink
I just can't find that rule in that e-mail, that's all.
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malakawa
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 11:54:31 PM »


I just can't find that rule in that e-mail, that's all.

it is not in that e-mail. try to find it online.  Wink
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Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards and in high heels.

It takes an athlete to dance, but an artist to be a dancer.
elisedance
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2009, 06:45:03 AM »

I had a real problem with that rule (pro-AMs can not teach but AM-AMs can) since it establishes the pro-am as a distinct, and I think inferior AM.  The reason is obvious - it would undercut the income of the pro and has nothing to do with dancesport. 

What happens if a dance does both AM and pro-AM (as I do) it means that now I am an AM that is not allowed to teach - and ironically, I probably support Dancesport more than other AMs and have much higher costs.

[its actually a moot point for me as AMs can not teach in Canada.  oh, unless you are  Canadian champion (or was it finalist) - so we too have our byzentine laws....]
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ttd
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Posts: 642


« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2009, 03:15:19 PM »

I think there are good and bad things regarding this champ am can't dance with their students at comp rule. Good thing is to protect the pros for making their living.

It's interesing that the rules allow partnerless junior girls who can't afford pro-am to dance with a higher level junior or youth boy, but what about poor but talented partnerless adult girls who can't afford pro-am? stop competing? I know someone working hard and with talent but can't find partner in US, have difficulty to afford pro-am on a regular basis, all her try-outs in USA are way below her level, thus even she enter pre-champ level with her "partners", she could not get the placement she desire. I know she's thinking of bringing in high level European boys into USA, but European boys all check results on internet before even considering a tryout. If the rule allow this poor girl to pay a higher level champ dancer at a rate she could afford to even compete at a small champ level or pre-champ comps, she might get a much more decent comp results profile for attracting better tryouts in Europe. Dancesportinfo doesn't track pro-am results, so I think the champ ams are hurt for certain extent not able to make this money, but they still okay for balancing their budget to get some extra cash to pay for their expensive coaching lessons, but the people really hurt is partnerless non-junior girls who can't afford pro-am but with a desire to compete and excel.

Just my observation and 2 cents.

This might not be a problem if there was a site (or section on dancesportinfo) which tracks pro-am results.
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Medira
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2009, 04:23:18 PM »

I had a real problem with that rule (pro-AMs can not teach but AM-AMs can) since it establishes the pro-am as a distinct, and I think inferior AM.  The reason is obvious - it would undercut the income of the pro and has nothing to do with dancesport. 

What happens if a dance does both AM and pro-AM (as I do) it means that now I am an AM that is not allowed to teach - and ironically, I probably support Dancesport more than other AMs and have much higher costs.

[its actually a moot point for me as AMs can not teach in Canada.  oh, unless you are  Canadian champion (or was it finalist) - so we too have our byzentine laws....]
I believe that you have to be a finalist in order to teach up here.
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