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Author Topic: lower to move and move to lower  (Read 1362 times)
elisedance
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ee


« on: May 15, 2010, 07:08:52 AM »

These phrases have come up a lot in the ballroom dance topics - with the 'move to lower' the decided preferred way to dance.  While I get the idea and I was still a bit confused with the actual mechanics since both actions involve bending of the knee.  After a little thought I came up with the attached diagram.

What it comes down to is whether you allow your body to move forward as the knee bends or whether it stays in a straight line above your ankles:

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elisedance
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2010, 07:11:39 AM »

The difference on the dance action is enormous.  The former actually gives you more power since the leg is bent and can use the full extention.  I can see why it would be hard to stop doing this once it is ingrained.  It is, however, hard on the knee and is far less graceful and, most important, it does not allow you to take advantage of gravity.  The energy used to lower is lost since it is not translated into forward motion and hence, can not be used either for forward action or to swing up for the next step.  The latter is actually what you do when you walk - yet its a little harder to do when you start dancing as you don't have the confidence to propell yourself into a space where you don't feel stable (things are happening while you are also trying to tihnk about steps).

Least thats how I see it...
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 07:14:10 AM by elisedance » Logged

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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 09:04:07 PM »

 Actually the drawings you made are not quite correct. Let me work on some drawings to show you. Would you be able to post them for me as I don't know how to that?
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Edward Teller
Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 10:17:25 PM »

I will be emailing you the drawing to post with my post.
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Edward Teller
cornutt
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2010, 10:37:00 PM »

I try to think of "move to lower" as going down a ramp.  As in when you actually do go down a ramp, it converts some of the gravitational force into horizontal motion.  If you lower to move, the motion is L-shaped -- you lower first and then move horizontally.  You can, as Elise said, cover somewhat more distance because you start with your knees already bent -- but it takes a lot more effort.  Further, it's a poor leading technique because it's confusing for the follow; there's no indication of the forward motion until she gets steamrolled by the lead.   Shocked
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 10:49:34 PM »

First I think it is important to understand that to “Lower” and to go “down” are two very different parts of the down swing or as it is called in the Body School the “division”.
To “Lower” = lower the body from elevation back to neural position
To go “Down” = lower the body from neutral position to below neutral position or the down position.

One of my teachers always says.

“You don’t go down to move the movement takes you down.”


I have done a rough drawing that is not totally to scale and correct but it does give an idea of the concept.
The very best way to really see it is to go to Starbucks to get a cup of coffee. No, I am not kidding. While you are there pick up 4 stirs (you might need more in the beginning for practice). Give one of the stirs a slight bend half way down and one fingers width bend at the bottom so that it looks like a leg. Repeat the process with the other 3 stirs. Now put the stirs on a table, two and two together as if you are seeing the legs in profile. Have the “feet” be towards your front. Hold the top of the stirs together and move the “foot” of one of the stirs as to separate the legs. When you do this you will see that the top (that you are holding together) moves across the table and will slide down towards you.  You will also notice that the “knees” were not involved in the movement. So by moving the stirs (legs) across the table the top actually came closer to you even though you didn’t think of bringing the stirs down.
Now it is time to go to the other 2 stirs. Now instead of moving the “foot” of one of the stirs you now push the top of the stir towards the “foot” of the stir. You might break the stir in the process and that really showing you the stress you are putting on your knees.
If you have some stirs, please go to a Body School teacher and ask them to show you the stir principle. I am sure they will be more than happy to show it to you.
 
I hope this answers the question or at least makes it a little clearer.

DSV

(the pictures should be posted soon)
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Edward Teller
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2010, 03:23:28 AM »

Actually the drawings you made are not quite correct. Let me work on some drawings to show you. Would you be able to post them for me as I don't know how to that?
Here - the resoliution is not that great (its our size limit) but I think you can see.
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catsmeow
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2010, 07:45:40 AM »

If one of the partners uses a move to go down approach while the other a down to move at the same time, what would happen to the overall look of the couple?
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2010, 11:50:14 AM »

If one of the partners uses a move to go down approach while the other a down to move at the same time, what would happen to the overall look of the couple?
Hmmm. Could be the end of the world as we know it.  Definitely the end of the partnership, or at least their legs....
I don't think its really possible...
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samina
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2010, 12:29:15 PM »

very helpful. thanks for giving me an excuse to hit up starbucks after the gym this afternoon, lolz.
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2010, 12:50:16 PM »

If one of the partners uses a move to go down approach while the other a down to move at the same time, what would happen to the overall look of the couple?

They would have a great big gap between them during the down swing as the one that goes down is not moving (as in "down to move") and the other is moving (as in "movement takes you down"). They wouldn't actually be dancing together anymore with that kind of a gap between them.
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2010, 12:55:18 PM »

I don't see whats wrong with my diagram DSV - it focuses on the very first action in the two motions.  Its from a stopped position, not a dancing one (which I think yours is).  As I understand it, the key issue is whether body is moved forward, as the knee bends or whether it moves down.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2010, 01:19:59 PM »

There are two things that made me go “that is not right”.

The first one is that it looks like the pelvic area is being tilted forward or tucked forward, in the (move to Lower) part of your diagram. The second thing is that it looks like the body is not moving to line up with the knee and thigh. The head, body, thigh and knee should move together on the “move to go down” (move to lower) part of the diagram. If the upper body moved with the knee and thigh then the pelvic area wouldn’t tilt and the body would be in line with knee and the thigh over the standing foot.

This would be “The rule of vertical lines” or sometimes called “Vertical Downswing”.

A little part of that rule states that there must be 4 points in a vertical line to the standing foot.
1.)   Armpit
2.)   Waist
3.)   Hip
4.)   Middle of the thigh half way down.

It is not easy to make a clear picture of a three dimensional movement or to explain the action with words. I hope you understand what I am talking about.

DSV
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

Edward Teller
mayoz
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2010, 06:14:12 AM »

When The Body School teacher come to visit our city, will use "chopsticks" instead, also we will be told how the knee get injured by the "lower to move " action!
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SwingWaltz
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2010, 10:48:58 AM »

Hmmm...I have a question, when we say "lower" do you mean lower from the neutral standing position?
I've been told that if I am lowing from a rised position, as soon as I pass the neutral position, I should start moving on to my next step. ie. I should never lower with my feet closed.
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