partnerdanceonline.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 23, 2014, 11:50:13 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
A lot of people are visiting Smiley Smiley
Undecided Undecided but not many are posting....
please say hi Cheesy
116470 Posts in 1856 Topics by 221 Members
Latest Member: EVE_Dance
* Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  partnerdanceonline.com
|-+  Partner Dancing
| |-+  Dancesport
| | |-+  Judging (Moderators: QPO, Rugby, Lioness, ZPomeroy)
| | | |-+  Judging
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 Print
Author Topic: Judging  (Read 14662 times)
QPO
Moderator
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20824


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #150 on: May 03, 2010, 02:59:17 AM »

Never?  Interesting, I communicated with a judge off-forum and he had had a different experience - that couples numbers were mentioned in the judges meeting as well as other 'hints'.  It was a bit depressing

It is not depressing. It is disgusting. Whomever it was needs a severe talking with. How blatantly unprofessional, not to mention unfair to the competitors.


I concur. Is there any recourse?
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
TangoDancer
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 736



« Reply #151 on: May 04, 2010, 03:15:49 AM »

Unfortunately, I do not see any. Most of the time if one goes to the organizer/s, they will simply deny that it happened. If one goes to the council, they will side with the organizer/s just b/c they really do not care. Probably the best thing to do is to write to a publication like DanceBeat, USA Dance mag, etc. They will usually print the story, and the guilty persons will be confronted indirectly. Will it stop them? Probably not, but they will, at least, know that they are being called out on their behavior/s, and others are aware of it.
Logged

The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
QPO
Moderator
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20824


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2010, 05:13:30 AM »

yes that may be a good option. Because something must be said or nothing will change Roll Eyes
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35013


ee


« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2010, 08:35:10 AM »

yes that may be a good option. Because something must be said or nothing will change Roll Eyes

The only way these things change is if the organizations that are responsible for the dancers are ethical and flex their muscle.  Unfortunately, sometimes either the former or latter are lacking.  That and the fundamental problem that judging is a matter of opinion so it is very hard to determine if someone is biased - just look at the classic collapse of the olympic ice-skating ranking system.

It would be interesting to put together a second panel of world-class adjudicators and have them judge the competition from the stands.  Then compare the actual results with that of the clandestine ranking.  I would hope that they would at least be similar....
 
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
TangoDancer
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 736



« Reply #154 on: May 05, 2010, 02:28:29 AM »

The only way these things change is if the organizations that are responsible for the dancers are ethical and flex their muscle.  Unfortunately, sometimes either the former or latter are lacking.  That and the fundamental problem that judging is a matter of opinion so it is very hard to determine if someone is biased -

Your post actually introduces a second/seperate issue; 1- the ethics of orgs, etc. and 2- the bias/ethics of individuals (judges). The second has been discussed in anther thread, here. Yet, the first is the main point. Q is right; nothing will change unless something is said/done. Again, you are right in that what needs to be said/done, as it applies to this thread, is that the guilty organizers of the event in question, need to have hteir ethics questioned. The way in which is suggested might not do anything, but it does bring it to the awareness of the masses, and this might shame/deter the guilty from doing it in the future.
Logged

The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35013


ee


« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2010, 02:56:37 AM »

The root problem is the subjectivity of judging an art.  This feeds the problem twice - first that those who are unethical can hide behind 'opinion' when they skew results.  But the more insidious outcome is that those who are judged become scared to question the results for fear of retribution through this lattitude.

Thus, as I see it, the only way to counter unethical judging is with a strong ethical organization - one that has teeth and represents the needs of the dancers to have fair judges.  The real 'problem', where there is one, is that the competition organizers typically have too much power in the area of arranging judging as apart from aranging the competition itself.  The choice of judges should (IMO) be left to the (respected) professional body.

Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
QPO
Moderator
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20824


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2010, 08:11:02 AM »

I have heard this is one reason why Ballroom is yet to be in the Olympics because trying to work out the judging to be fair. Roll Eyes
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
Rugby
Moderator
Gold
****
Posts: 3599



« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2010, 12:06:48 PM »

Never?  Interesting, I communicated with a judge off-forum and he had had a different experience - that couples numbers were mentioned in the judges meeting as well as other 'hints'.  It was a bit depressing

It is not depressing. It is disgusting. Whomever it was needs a severe talking with. How blatantly unprofessional, not to mention unfair to the competitors.

From what I have seen and heard in my opinion (and many others) these people do not seem to care.  People are amazed that the organizations appear to know about the problems but don't react either than to look the other way.  This allows these people to think they have a demi-god status and are above reproach. I do believe though it will come back to bite them in the butt and their competitions will eventually fold.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 07:48:02 PM by Rugby » Logged

Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35013


ee


« Reply #158 on: May 05, 2010, 12:41:49 PM »

Actually, I don't think so.  There are enough like-minded studio owners/coaches/competition organizers to create an entire 'alternative' dance competition structure.  It really depends on the ethics of the dancers.  How many would accept a system where they are guaranteed to win?  I think the approximate answer is the same as the number that take lessons from judges in order to get marks...

BTW I was not talking about any specific competitions. PDO is about generalities not specifics - we don't have a lawyer Undecided
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Rugby
Moderator
Gold
****
Posts: 3599



« Reply #159 on: May 06, 2010, 01:51:24 AM »

Suprising how many people want to win at all costs.  I want to know I won because I danced well or else it means nothing.  Going to the popular judges for marks is a waste of time and these people will find that out.  More than once have I seen a final where all the couples went to the same judge, who was also judging at the time, for lessons.  So, who is the judge going to pick when they all go to her?  In the end all that happens is these couples put out a ton of money to find out that a bunch of the other couples are doing the same thing and going around for marks.  Now almost everyone is back in the same boat, just poorer for it.  What they don't consider is when they leave that judge.  They went to them to bring up their marks but now are held hostage in fear of the backlash if they leave.  Better not to go there.  If we go to someone it is because we think they can offer us something.  If they judge or not judge is not an issue.  95% of the instructors we have gone to do not judge and one was so blacklisted that if anyone found out we went to him then we could basically forget competing.  He had a huge amount to offer and so we went to him for two years before he finally moved away.  There are instructors who judge at both studios I go to and I will talk about dancing with them and ask their advice about what they are looking for in a competition couple.  Only one has refused to tell me anything but I know from mutual friends what he likes anyways.         
Logged

Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
ttd
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 642


« Reply #160 on: May 06, 2010, 09:38:11 PM »

Ok, per elise suggestion, adding this question to the judging topic.

how important is it to get seen by judges outside of the area? When I go someplace like OSB, the judges who don't mark me tend to be the ones who are from one of the coasts and do not usually judge medium-sized Midwestern comps.

In a way that makes sense, because they would look at people they know first, sort them out, then fit everyone else in into whatever is left.
Logged
Rugby
Moderator
Gold
****
Posts: 3599



« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2010, 11:01:05 PM »

You would assume they would look at the out of towners first as they are an unknown whereas the judges probably have an idea what the locals can do so would not have to dedicate as much time to watching them.
 
Logged

Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35013


ee


« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2010, 11:07:38 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong ttd, but I think the question is more about 'becoming familiar with' and I think its part of the pro-am culture.  Pro-am competitors tend to range earlier and further afield to competitions - partly due to where their particular pro wants/needs to go.  Thus, there is a sentiment that top couples get seen by a wide range of judges and, hence, when these come together for a major competition - such as OSB - they will already have a feel for the top couples.

I don't know if this is actually the case or whether the status of the pro is actually more important (something we've discussed before).  But the general issue is: will judges score you better if they have seen you before?  its possible that the answer is different for AM and pro-AM.
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Rugby
Moderator
Gold
****
Posts: 3599



« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2010, 11:37:40 PM »

Yeah I can see that.
Logged

Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
TangoDancer
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 736



« Reply #164 on: May 07, 2010, 03:54:47 AM »

In a way that makes sense, because they would look at people they know first, sort them out, then fit everyone else in into whatever is left.

I will always first watch the ones whom I do not know. The ones whom I know, I know how they dance.
Logged

The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!