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Author Topic: Judging  (Read 12598 times)
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2009, 11:22:33 PM »

I don't take a chance with that.  I always dress up when I go to competitions and try to carry myself as I think a dancer and a chamption should - surely that can't hurt your attitude when you go on the floor.

whether I actually pull it off or look like a dork is another matter Smiley
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QPO
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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2009, 12:29:20 AM »

Well we all try to do the best we can....no one can criticise that.....we are all there for the love of dancing....Smiley
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Some guy
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2009, 02:40:24 PM »

There are various factors that the judges could be judging: it could be that the dancers they mark well take a lot of lessons, supports dancing in their community or the competition circuit, is a local favorite, etc.  I don't condone these reasons nor do I criticize them because I honestly don't know what it is like to be a professional judge.  

Personally, I would much prefer that they judge the performance at that event solely with a clean slate but then again, with a minute and a half to judge all the couples on the floor with costumes and choreography designed to highlight their strong points and hide their weaknesses, I'm sure it's not an easy task.

I also acknowledge that there definitely is some politics involved, but could it be that the politics grew as a result of the judges trying to make their daunting task easier for themselves?  Is it possible to design dancesport such that it would be easy for the judges to focus on the objectives and do their jobs?  I mean, when you're trying to recall 24 couples from four or five heats of dancers, I have no earthly idea how the judges could do it with absolutely objectivity.  I know it's easy to spot the really good ones and the really sub-standard ones, but what about the majority of couples lumped in the middle? 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 02:45:48 PM by Some guy » Logged
elisedance
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2009, 10:09:40 PM »

theres politics and then I'm afraid there is fiscal reality.  Imagine that you are coaching an Am couple and they compete in an even that you are judging.  There is a possibility (I won't say danger because, of course, we would hope that the judge is entirely honest) that if you mark them hard that they will ask - why are they taking lessons from you if you don't even think they are dancing well?  Its tough logic - in particular in a job where there really are not that many couples to teach.
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elisedance
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 06:21:15 AM »

well, actually greed...
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QPO
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 06:52:39 AM »

I have heard from teachers that they had their coaches as judges and they would mark their students first and they said no  if we are not the best on the floor you should not do that....Judging is not a science, but on the whole I think they get it right most of the time.
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cornutt
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 10:03:59 AM »

I have heard from teachers that they had their coaches as judges and they would mark their students first and they said no  if we are not the best on the floor you should not do that....Judging is not a science, but on the whole I think they get it right most of the time.

My limited experience has been that, if anything, a coach is going to be tougher on their own student than on other dancers.  My guess is this is a combination of wantind to avoid the appearance of favortism, and a desire to push the student a bit harder.
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elisedance
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 04:13:15 PM »

Thats the good coaches C - there's no problem there - its the next level  coaches or the ones struggling to retain a student base that can be put in a dilema...  I don't think its common at all but I do not  doubt that it happens.
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Rugby
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 10:21:59 PM »

Some judges that are losing popularity as teaches may judge to keep their face out there and to get students.  The worried ones may feel they have to "help" their couples win to A) keep those students they already have and B) attract new students.  It soon gets around which ones "help" their students to win.  The problem is when you have all your students in the final which one do you pick to win knowing you will peeve the others.
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2009, 10:56:31 PM »

I can only say this....most of my students hate it when I am one of the judges on the panel. I am very often their worst judge.

I was also at the lecture with the judges that emeralddancer talked about. I must say I totally agreed with what they said and emeralddancer did give a good report on what was said. Look back and check it out.... Smiley

I don't think I sould say any more then that.

Dora-Satya Veda
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Rugby
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2009, 11:24:42 PM »

I did a bit of dressage judging at some horse shows.  To me the rider and horse were number whatever and that was it.  I didn't care who they were personally to keep it fair.  I told the ones I knew that I was going to mark the one that was the best.  If they won then they truly knew they won because of how they performed rather than who they knew.  As a dancer I want to know I won because I was the best that day rather than knowing I had any help to achieve it.  I would never know if I truly won or not and thus not be able to judge where my dancing was.
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You have to fight through a lot of crap before you find your way up out of the toilet. Sometimes I think I have a good hold on the rim then I slip back in.  Each time I don't sink quite as deep though. - Rugby
standarddancer
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 11:40:34 PM »

I think the reason for teachers to mark their own students, even though the couples they are teaching might not dancing at their best at a particular comp, but the teacher coach the couple and had impression of how the couple might perform under their best condition and their full capability, often this impression overcome what what they observe. It's not objective, but judges are human being, human being make errors.

It's almost impossible to avoid or make rules to forbidden teachers to judge their own students, since ballroom world are small, same people, same faces, to make rules to forbid coaches to judge their own students woulld make most of judges to lose teaching business. Although one thing that should be avoid, judges should not be judge their family members or s/o's, this really gives an appearance of favorism. A good judge would excuse himself/herself if their family members or s/o's were dancing (believe also NDCA rules); I witnessed an example, at a prestigious USA events, a top coach excused herself from judging the event that her sister is competing which is so classy; Wish every other judges could be like her!!!
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Some guy
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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2009, 11:47:51 AM »

I can only say this....most of my students hate it when I am one of the judges on the panel. I am very often their worst judge.

There is a lot to respect in that.  I like to feel like I earned something, and not like something was handed to me.  I like to feel that my placing would've been the same, no matter who the judges were because my performance dicatated my ranking that day. 
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ttd
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« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2009, 12:11:59 PM »

I think the reason for teachers to mark their own students, even though the couples they are teaching might not dancing at their best at a particular comp, but the teacher coach the couple and had impression of how the couple might perform under their best condition and their full capability, often this impression overcome what what they observe. It's not objective, but judges are human being, human being make errors.

It's almost impossible to avoid or make rules to forbidden teachers to judge their own students, since ballroom world are small, same people, same faces, to make rules to forbid coaches to judge their own students woulld make most of judges to lose teaching business. Although one thing that should be avoid, judges should not be judge their family members or s/o's, this really gives an appearance of favorism. A good judge would excuse himself/herself if their family members or s/o's were dancing (believe also NDCA rules); I witnessed an example, at a prestigious USA events, a top coach excused herself from judging the event that her sister is competing which is so classy; Wish every other judges could be like her!!!

I also heard that the judges tend to look at people they know personally first. It can be good or bad for you, depending on how you dance at the competitions - start out well and then make your mistakes later, or make your mistakes first and then get better.
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Dora-Satya Veda
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« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2009, 12:47:17 PM »

I know I probably shouldn't post here....but I do think some things needs to be clarified from a judge’s perspective.

judges are human being, human being make errors.

This is an important thing to remember. We are humans, we do make mistakes, we don't see everything and we don't have time to look at you all the time. I do think one little note is important here. We are (at least in my training as a judge) asked to give our unbiased, honest, fair and personal opinion of how we think the dancers should be placed. My teacher said that every time before you turn in the paper or push send on the PDA, you should ask yourself two questions…

1. Can I look in the mirror and say I did my very best?
2. Can I sleep well tonight with knowing what I did?

In short, we are expected and ask to give our opinion as we see it at the moment in time.

Quote
It's almost impossible to avoid or make rules to forbidden teachers to judge their own students, since ballroom world are small, same people, same faces, to make rules to forbid coaches to judge their own students woulld make most of judges to lose teaching business. Although one thing that should be avoid, judges should not be judge their family members or s/o's, this really gives an appearance of favorism. A good judge would excuse himself/herself if their family members or s/o's were dancing (believe also NDCA rules); I witnessed an example, at a prestigious USA events, a top coach excused herself from judging the event that her sister is competing which is so classy; Wish every other judges could be like her!!!

It is an NDCA and a USA Dance rule that you have to excuse yourself, if you have any family members dancing in an event. I am not sure what the consequence would be if not doing so, but I have never hear of a judge not excusing themselves when a family member was dancing an event. On many judges contracts, we are to list the events that we have family members dancing in. So this is often taken care of by the organizer and Chairman of judges before the competition even starts so it is often never even noticed that a judge is not judging an event because of a conflict of interest.

I can tell you this that when I danced in Europe and I am sure it is the same issue today, most of the judges taught/teaches somebody on the floor. More then 90% of the judges, judging teach couples that dance the competitions they judge. I have asked many of my colleagues what they would choose if they had to choose between judging and teaching, 99% of them answered they would prefer to teach. That would mean that the judges that many perceive as “top” or “good” judges, would no longer be judging. I can tell you that when I danced Blackpool, UK and International, every single judge was teaching somebody on that floor.

Now that open the discussion to who do you want to have judge you?

Do you want a person that have danced themselves, therefore knows what it takes (technically, mentally and physically) and because of this often teach/coach couples dancing on the floor with you?

Or

Do you want a person that have not danced themselves, therefore doesn’t teach/coach and doesn’t have any couples dancing on the floor with you?

This is a big question. This question was being discussed even when I danced and I am sure many years before that. I know what I think about this issue and what many of my colleagues think about the issue. It is however up to the dancers to influence the organizations to do what they want to have happen in the future.  
 
Dora-Satya Veda
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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

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