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Author Topic: Judging  (Read 14650 times)
QPO
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Adelaide South Australia


« on: April 15, 2009, 10:04:31 PM »

On another note. Having now experience our first comp and survived. I was surprised with some results. Not that I was expecting to win, (it was a bonus) some results were very surprising, having seen the others dance and then reviewing our performance I wondered how they would be placed higher than us. I know I have a lot to improve especially heads and lowering etc.

What is the criteria for the judging. What is the order of things they would look at.
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waltzelf
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 200


« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 10:06:10 PM »

On another note. Having now experience our first comp and survived. I was surprised with some results. Not that I was expecting to win, (it was a bonus) some results were very surprising, having seen the others dance and then reviewing our performance I wondered how they would be placed higher than us. I know I have a lot to improve especially heads and lowering etc.

What is the criteria for the judging. What is the order of things they would look at.


It varies wildly from judge to judge. There's no real set criteria. Rule of thumb is to get everything right, and hope for the best.
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mummsie
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2009, 12:41:19 AM »

hi guys, - judging is very subjective.  We noticed it especially when they did the visual judging at the Qld Open on the weekend.  And also having worked as a card collector over many comps when I am not dancing.  Its amazing the differences you get in each event.  Very hard to pick.  You don't go out thinking you are going to get good marks - they are always a bonus.  We go out and think 'did we do the best we could do on the day'  if not there is always the next comp to try harder.  We are finding now we are level 5 its really hard.  We were very pleased at the weekend though to knock some of the usuals off their perches and get back to a semi final for our NV event.  Enjoy dancing at the lower grades guys - believe me its much easier and more fun and you get more opportunities to dance than when you get to level 5.  Level 3 was the best level for us.  You dance your level 3, sometimes you can dance level 4 and you can also dance level 5 - you get two or three chances at getting it right.  When you get to level 5 - that's it. Dance once and its all over.!!!! - mummsie
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Rugby
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2009, 01:18:35 AM »

Mummsie is so right, it is very subjective and everyone must take that into consideration.

I have talked to many of the judges in our area at one time or another asking what do they look for when judging.  Well each had their own particular thing that they looked for.  Some looked for connection between the couple (physical and mental), some were really into technique, others movement, others musicallity and the character of the dance, some wanted to see the couple showing something more than just safely dancing along.  Another watched how the man handled the corners, moving on the floor, etc. and leading his partner.  Some really watched the woman, others the man.  Another would watch the feet as he could tell the dancer's skill yet another said they didn't have to look at the feet but rather the upper body and frame.  Seems like in Standard the men had to sell the show and in latin the women.  Not that the other's part was not watched or mattered.  So many judges and all had their own ideas of what was more important.  I guess to win with them all you had to match all the different criteria.  I'm sure this is why the marks can vary.  Two of the main things in common to all were being on time and good posture from both couples. 

We were at one competition where I knew that we had two judges with completely opposite views of how the rumba should be danced.  One was very partial to a softer flowing style with no sharpness whereas the other wanted a combination of sharpness and softness.  Thankfully both were at opposite ends of the room so when we went out on the floor we made sure to be near the judge that liked the contrast as we like to play with the music and dance it this way also.   

Don't forget too that you win or lose on that day and the next weekend could be a completely different story.  There are so many variables involved.       
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
QPO
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Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2009, 01:30:26 AM »

great advice. thanks for that, and even though we would like to get to a higher level we are happy to go through the ranks.
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SwingWaltz
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2009, 06:26:36 AM »

Whilst not wanting to get into the deep of this discussion, I still would like to point out that there are often politics involved in judging! And that is all I'm going to say! Let's not debate against it, it's there, we all know it, just got to leave it at the back of the mind.
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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2009, 07:11:54 AM »

Whilst not wanting to get into the deep of this discussion, I still would like to point out that there are often politics involved in judging! And that is all I'm going to say! Let's not debate against it, it's there, we all know it, just got to leave it at the back of the mind.

Now thats wishful thinking - stating that there is politics in judging and then saying we should not debate it!!  Smiley

I think we can have a topic on that - I think it needs venting - as long as there are no names in it.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

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elisedance
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2009, 07:12:29 AM »

BTW great advice mummsie and Rugby...
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
QPO
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Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 08:24:23 AM »

I agree that it could be discussed "Politics" but done without malice. I have heard on many occasions and people even tired to stop us doing comps becuase they say too much politics and the best person does not always win...But if people don't speak up nothing changes.

It needs to be a constructive conversation (globally) and it will take a long time to change I am sure :-)

On the whole I think the majority of people do the right thing.
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cornutt
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 02:19:54 PM »

There's a saying in baseball that outcomes in that sport are the result of accumulations of small differences.  It seems to me that for dancesport it's much the same.  The results of any one particular comp don't really tell you a lot; you have to dance several comps to get an idea of where you really stand vs. your competition.  There's always that one day when the best couple in the world can be beaten, but over the course of a year or several years, that couple will win most of the time.
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Rugby
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2009, 02:17:50 PM »

Whilst not wanting to get into the deep of this discussion, I still would like to point out that there are often politics involved in judging! And that is all I'm going to say! Let's not debate against it, it's there, we all know it, just got to leave it at the back of the mind.

Sad but true.  Sometimes its so obvious and everyone knows, even the other judges, but nothing gets done because nobody wants to make waves.
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
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ee


« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2009, 04:12:05 PM »

I tell ya what after listening to Glenn Weiss and Meilssa Dexter speak about this very subject .... it really is all subjective

1. they are all human, and humans being what they are well .... some are good, some not so good, etc ... it is what it is

2. some are the most honest and upright and judge to find what is good. (Glenn and Melissa, look to find good in each dancer, not bad)

3. some are (unfortunately) drawn into the politics of things and are trapped so to speak. (I was amazed about this, but witnessed it first hand the power one wields and how quickly a person can be swayed)

4. some well .... are just rotten. hehee

According to Glenn and Melissa - they are looking for musicality, timing, those sorts of things. They are not looking at clothes, hair, size. That is more after, but not to sway them from what the original purpose or intent of judging for them.

Also these judges notice people who are not making a big show of being noticed. They are looking for those that are relaxed and confident. To try to dance close to them, to make a "show" to get their attention is more to turn them off than on. They have to look at the whole floor of people. So back away from the judges so they CAN see you. (this is all paraphrased of course and from memory. Anyone else in on that meeting at Nationals?)

One thing I did notice ... I like the judges that mark quickly. There are 3 or 4 that KNOW instinctively know in a moment and mark. I have found them to be pretty accurate in their assessments too (being a runner has its teeny privileges Wink)

Hope this helps

nice post EM - and nice to hear an honest appraisal of judging by judges.  One person who judges that I know went apoplectic if anyone suggested any judge ever marked unfairly...

Alsolike the bit about what they look for most and about showy dancers... very reassuring, I'd like to be judged by these two     Wink
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
QPO
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Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2009, 08:04:06 PM »

I had heard this also about the Politics of judging. Which is sad...you would like to think that people are always being judged on their merits...But I feel if you know the rules and they way it works the better off you will be less disappointment.
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SwingWaltz
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2009, 09:19:14 AM »

Another interesting point that was raised today, which was whether judges only judge you on your dancing while you are on the floor, or do judges also "judge" or more so have an impression of you by seeing the way you carry yourself both on the floor and off the floor.
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QPO
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Continental Champion
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Posts: 20824


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2009, 09:51:22 AM »

We have been told to go on and off the floor like we know what we are doing, be confident....First impressions last
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Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
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