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Author Topic: AT Syllabus  (Read 5234 times)
elisedance
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2010, 10:08:22 AM »

[Hi David!!! ~~~~~~ (waves Wink)]
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Subliminal
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2010, 12:29:28 PM »

Thanks for the comments.

DB: The class notes are indeed helpful. However, I'm sort of in the position of already having taken a similar course. The intent of my list is to teach myself improvisation and work on my muscle memory by taking possible movements and experimenting with them. I tried to avoid set patterns and focus on the transitions, except in cases where it was unavoidable or it's a common enough movement that breaking it down might be more confusing. I.e., Calecita is basically the leader holding the follower still and walking. And I listed the giro, but notice I indicated it can be broken at any point.

I agree with your assessment of the DVIDA syllabus. I can't imagine learning much from it, if anything for social dancing.

Let me explain a little more on how I'm using this list. Basically, I pick a skill to work on with my practice partner, like Disassociation. I look at the list, and see there are several possible ways to cross. I then work with her on trying different possibilities. Outside cross, inline cross, cross-system cross. Then I'll try them on the other side. Then maybe I'll switch to the sidestep cross. (Ocho cortado). Again, both sides. Then insert different crosses in the giro. And if I'm not having trouble with any of those, I move down to the higher steps. Crossing the follower from a backstep instead of a frontstep. Crossing myself at the same time. Etc. All to the music of course. When I get the technique down, I add elements from the Musicality section. Basically, if I limit myself to walking and whatever moves I'm practicing, I can better find ways to fit them to the music.

It is entirely possible to skip ahead to intermediate or advanced in a catagory if I'm doing well in something. Likewise, revisiting the beginner section periodically will also happen.

I'm not planning on teaching anytime soon. Trust me, I still consider myself a beginner. This is mostly theoretical and a teaching aid for myself. I see your point about the terminology, I could replace ocho with pivot. But what about sacada? Use the phrase "displace the follower" instead? And parada. What would you say instead?

BTM: Why remove the parada? It is a possibility.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 12:58:23 PM by Subliminal » Logged
Bordertangoman
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2010, 01:38:11 PM »

for me the parada always breaks the flow of the dance; barridas are better because yuo can choose to take them slow or at tempo.
Its something I wold never use outside of a demo, unless you are using them for a step-over colgada.
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David Bailey
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2010, 06:32:01 PM »

I see your point about the terminology, I could replace ocho with pivot. But what about sacada? Use the phrase "displace the follower" instead?
Why not?

In fact, as an exercise, I did an "English first" glossary of terms here:
http://www.learningtango.com/Glossary.html

Feel free to use any of these.
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Subliminal
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2010, 11:18:18 PM »

*ponder*

I started changing them, but then thought the better of it. I'm not sure I like renaming everything, particularly the things that are actually patterns. I don't want to get into a terminology debate, but some of these things are flat out traditional patterns, despite being made of smaller pieces. I'm not sure what level of granularity I want to go to. I could rename everything to its base part, but that might be more confusing than just using commonly accepted terminology.

I'll think about it.

Also, paradas stay for now. Smiley If I ever make this syllabus official, maybe I'll think about removing things, or reorganizing things. But right now I'm going for a list of things to practice. And who knows, maybe I will use them in a show someday.
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elisedance
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2010, 06:54:12 AM »

we want a VIDEO on utube - just label it the Official PDO Tango Syllabus... Cheesy
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David Bailey
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2010, 08:18:43 AM »

I'm not sure I like renaming everything, particularly the things that are actually patterns. I don't want to get into a terminology debate, but some of these things are flat out traditional patterns, despite being made of smaller pieces. I'm not sure what level of granularity I want to go to. I could rename everything to its base part, but that might be more confusing than just using commonly accepted terminology.
Yes - so basically, what this exercise shows is that your syllabus is quite pattern-heavy.

I think there _are_ a couple of movements which are patterns in AT - giros, for example.

But most of the others are simply combinations of basic steps. And I guess my main critique is that it's not always clear why you're teaching certain patterns. The key concepts seem to be lost in the vast number of moves.

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Subliminal
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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2010, 12:29:49 PM »

we want a VIDEO on utube - just label it the Official PDO Tango Syllabus... Cheesy

Hehe! We'll see. Wink Maybe I can convince my practice partner to make a video with me... in a couple years, when I'm confident enough to show my stuff. Smiley
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Subliminal
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2010, 12:43:20 PM »

 O
Yes - so basically, what this exercise shows is that your syllabus is quite pattern-heavy.

I think there _are_ a couple of movements which are patterns in AT - giros, for example.

But most of the others are simply combinations of basic steps. And I guess my main critique is that it's not always clear why you're teaching certain patterns. The key concepts seem to be lost in the vast number of moves.

Well, let me ask a question then... which ones would you remove? The idea here is to teach possibilities and improve muscle memory. For example, I thought about taking out the lateral grapevine. That is clearly a pattern. But... it teaches sideways traveling can be fluid and take advantage of the follower's technique that she already knows. (There's a reason grapevine shows up all over the place in different dances.) I guess to be consistent I could call it a sideways giro, but giro implies the circular pattern. Heh. Or I could replace giro with grapevine in the entire list. My teacher who grew up in argentina calls it that.  Tongue ok one more check in favor of not using spanish words. Smiley

Another one I though about removing is "fast milonga pivots". These are just front or back ochos with a tiny tiny step on the follower's part, sometimes just in place while the leader moves. Clearly just another basic kind of pivot. But one that requires a very good lead, support, and a refinement of earlier technique. Remove it? Or keep it because it teaches a different way to move?
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Bordertangoman
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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2010, 01:07:33 PM »

You dont seem to have a walking turn;
or other kinds of turns that are travelling in the LOD.
Its good to have a few of these and see what works in parallel and cross-system.
some get half a turn with a giro to bring the woman back in front of you
others allow a full 360 turn.
other exercises are to get the followere to call out back or forward ocho on the fifth step
so whereever you are whichever foot, you lead her into a b or f-8
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”We need a witness to our lives.  There's a billion people on the planet, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you're promising to care about everything.  The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things, all of it, all of the time, every day. "
David Bailey
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« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2010, 01:41:06 PM »

O
Yes - so basically, what this exercise shows is that your syllabus is quite pattern-heavy.

I think there _are_ a couple of movements which are patterns in AT - giros, for example.

But most of the others are simply combinations of basic steps. And I guess my main critique is that it's not always clear why you're teaching certain patterns. The key concepts seem to be lost in the vast number of moves.

Well, let me ask a question then... which ones would you remove?
I'd rephrase them.

So instead of having, say:

  • Back ocho to giro
  • Sidestep to giro
  • Front ocho to giro
  • Giro to back ochos
  • Giro to sidestep
  • Giro to front ochos
  • Giro to cross


I'd have:
  • Giro - starting from any point, and stopping at any point.
  • Giros and ochos - mixing and matching pivots and rotation.

The idea here is to teach possibilities and improve muscle memory.
I'm not sure that muscle memory is a good approach, to be honest - except in the form of the fundamental steps (side / back / forward / pivot).
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TangoDancer
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2010, 12:58:26 AM »

Thanks TD. I've omitted the SSQQS pattern. Yeah, it probably does more harm than good to list it.

Erm. I'm having a brain meltdown at the moment. What does CPA stand for in this case? Can you provide some examples of exercises you think are worthwhile? Thanks!

Also, adding cross-system linear sacadas and partners at 90 degrees to each other walking. That adds a bunch more possibilities... not sure how many transitions to list though. Maybe I'll add it as a transition from an ocho, that seems to be the most common way into it. Like "Front ocho to 90 degrees, stop follower's collect and walk backwards or forwards with follower sideways". That makes sense to me, do you know the movement I'm talking about?

Sorry I have been gone so long. CPA....Corrective Posture Arc (the slight forward lean to center). Also, yes, I know the move that you are referring to.
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TangoDancer
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« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2010, 01:07:11 AM »

So instead of having, say:

  • Back ocho to giro
  • Sidestep to giro
  • Front ocho to giro
  • Giro to back ochos
  • Giro to sidestep
  • Giro to front ochos
  • Giro to cross


I'd have:
  • Giro - starting from any point, and stopping at any point.
  • Giros and ochos - mixing and matching pivots and rotation.

Now, this I agree with. I do not agree with renaming the figures. Call them what they are. If you wsh to add a parenthetical translation, so be it.

Also, DB, I would never use DVIDA and AT in the same sentence, and expect a serious reply. Though, the intention is well perceived, the product is horrendous.

Re the list being too long for a course.... nonsense. It is, as I might have posted, very similar to mine which I have used as a course at a university... 4 quarters/2 semesters. It took longer to become proficient at it, of course.
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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
TangoDancer
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Posts: 736



« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2010, 01:08:43 AM »

I'm not sure that muscle memory is a good approach, to be honest - except in the form of the fundamental steps (side / back / forward / pivot).

I thought that is the intent.  Huh
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The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
David Bailey
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 55


WWW
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2010, 09:07:12 AM »

I'm not sure that muscle memory is a good approach, to be honest - except in the form of the fundamental steps (side / back / forward / pivot).

I thought that is the intent.  Huh
Muscle memory for techniques for steps, maybe.

Muscle memory for doing patterns, no. If you train your muscles to remember that a giro always starts with a sidestep, for example, you're going to have problems in social dancing.

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