partnerdanceonline.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 21, 2014, 06:21:54 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
A lot of people are visiting Smiley Smiley
Undecided Undecided but not many are posting....
please say hi Cheesy
116470 Posts in 1856 Topics by 221 Members
Latest Member: EVE_Dance
* Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  partnerdanceonline.com
|-+  Partner Dancing
| |-+  Partner Dances
| | |-+  General partner dance issues (Moderators: Rugby, cornutt)
| | | |-+  maintaining frame and shape
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Print
Author Topic: maintaining frame and shape  (Read 3430 times)
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35013


ee


« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2010, 11:15:41 PM »

She showed me the right way to set the shoulders.  I need to think not of pulling them "down", but of rolling them downward and forward and then lifting my chest.  Plus maintaining some inward pressure on the circle, so my left arm in particular doesn't fly out at every opportunity.  The difference was amazing!  And after 45 minutes of that, my lats were really sore.   Shocked  Must work on that.  Need to practice it while sitting at my desk.

Now that sounds very familiar... right on Yulia!!

Though I don't think its going to work that well with desk-partner...
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1464


« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2010, 01:44:29 AM »

She showed me the right way to set the shoulders.  I need to think not of pulling them "down", but of rolling them downward and forward and then lifting my chest.  Plus maintaining some inward pressure on the circle, so my left arm in particular doesn't fly out at every opportunity.  The difference was amazing!  And after 45 minutes of that, my lats were really sore.   Shocked  Must work on that.  Need to practice it while sitting at my desk.
I tried for 7 years to perfect that.  I have a permanent shoulder injury to prove it.  If I may offer a quick solution: imagine that you're serving someone a small tray of food on each hand or a slice of pie on a plate in each hand.  Voila!: perfect shoulders, rolled down and forward lifting chest.  

Sorry, but I don't buy it for one minute that you don't have the necessary muscles "developed" yet to do this.  

When getting into hold, of course your palms won't stay facing up.  That's why you have to imagine that you're tipping over the pie making it fall to the ground from each palm until your palms are facing the right way.  Once again, voila!: perfect shoulder position in frame.  As for the "inward pressure", embrace your partner with your body.  The energy from the frame will automatically be directed inward to where she won't just feel arms, she'll feel the energy from your whole body.    
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 01:49:50 AM by Some guy » Logged
TangoDancer
Open Bronze
*
Posts: 736



« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2010, 02:23:16 AM »

Well, after tonight's coaching, I have a new mission.  I'm out to rebuild my frame and my connection.  Yulia demonstrated something to me tonight that shocked me: I have no real strength in my lats, and as a result, I'm using my shoulders and triceps way, way more than I should. 

She showed me the right way to set the shoulders.  I need to think not of pulling them "down", but of rolling them downward and forward and then lifting my chest.  Plus maintaining some inward pressure on the circle, so my left arm in particular doesn't fly out at every opportunity.  The difference was amazing!  And after 45 minutes of that, my lats were really sore.   Shocked  Must work on that.  Need to practice it while sitting at my desk.


I must agree w/ SG re your muscles that it takes to do this. Somewhere in this forum, I have discussed didactically how to achieve/maintain this (too lazy, right now to find it). It is right in line w/ your teacher's ideology, and will help if you care to search for it.
Logged

The most beautiful part of the dance is often found in between the steps... and in the movement within the stillness.
drj
Bronze
*
Posts: 334



« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2010, 07:51:15 AM »

<snip>As for the "inward pressure", embrace your partner with your body.  The energy from the frame will automatically be directed inward to where she won't just feel arms, she'll feel the energy from your whole body.    

Kiss

this feels so delicious on the receiving end, I can't really express it
Logged

ancora imparo
pruthe
Bronze
*
Posts: 274



« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2010, 10:05:38 AM »

...  As for the "inward pressure", embrace your partner with your body.  The energy from the frame will automatically be directed inward to where she won't just feel arms, she'll feel the energy from your whole body.    

Would you say feeling is similar to both partners trying to dance with no arm connection while maintaining a continuous slight forward touch at body connection point?
Logged

"It's not what you do, but how you do it."

"The Truth in Ballroom Dance is found in the Basic steps."

A.S.
cornutt
Administrator
Silver
****
Posts: 1845


« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2010, 11:39:46 AM »

Sorry, but I don't buy it for one minute that you don't have the necessary muscles "developed" yet to do this.  


Well, she did a demonstration with me: she had me hold my arms straight out, palms facing inward.  She put her hands outside of mine and pressed inwards, and she was easily able to overcome my resistance and force my hands together.  When I tried to do it to her, I couldn't do it.  I was shocked.  Maybe it's not a muscle-development thing per se, but a control and signaling problem: I couldn't get the muscles to develop force in the correct direction.

What I've been missing was the part about projecting the upper portion of the chest.  I've been trying to do it all from my diaphragm, because I've been so self-conscious about the shoulders-up-by-the-ears thing.   My upper chest was getting squeezed from top and bottom.  I was putting a lot of effort into muscles that were just opposing each other and not doing anything useful.

Yulia also pointed out that I'm over-rotating my torso in a lot of places where changes of positions occur.  For example, going into promenade, I've been opening it up way too much, and then when I take a step "forward", I'm angling away from my partner. 
Logged
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1464


« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2010, 01:26:24 PM »

Well, she did a demonstration with me: she had me hold my arms straight out, palms facing inward.  She put her hands outside of mine and pressed inwards, and she was easily able to overcome my resistance and force my hands together.  When I tried to do it to her, I couldn't do it.  I was shocked.  Maybe it's not a muscle-development thing per se, but a control and signaling problem: I couldn't get the muscles to develop force in the correct direction.
Sorry, still don't buy it.  I know she was able to "prove" to you that your muscles weren't strong enough but you weren't using them with the right energy to begin with.  Let me give you two examples of such "proof" that I was given regarding how weak I was:
1) I used to leg press 990-lbs (yes) in the gym, but my standard dance teacher at the time somehow was able to "prove" to me that my leg muscles weren't strong enough to "lower" in the Waltz.  This was back in the day when I knew nothing about the Body School and would always lower before moving.  He was able to prove (quite convincingly) that his leg muscles were much stronger than mine as he was able to lower and rise without any pain, and I on the other hand couldn't even support my 160-lbs of body weight when I lowered (as I would get sharp pains in my ankles and knees).  Little did I know at the time the concept of "energy" and how the energy in your action can translate to proper co-ordinated and bio-mechanical use of the muscles and joints.  
2) I used to shoulder press my body weight quite easily, lat pull-down a good 30-lbs more than my body weight quite easily, do seated rows with twice my body weight, and bench press my body weight without any spotter... all without compromising form or technique.  I was also told by a coach (a lady about 100-lbs, 5'5") that the muscles of my frame weren't strong enough.  She showed me the same method you described where she overcame me quite easily as I held my arms our in various ways.   Convinced, I forced her method for a good 7 years.  The result was that I hurt my right shoulder (my strongest side) pretty badly, making me unable to do much of what I used to in the gym.  

So while she did indeed prove to you that you have weak muscles, I would take that "proof" with a HUGE grain, or should I say sack, of salt.  If you can serve an appetizer tray without your shoulders hitting your ears, then you have all the muscles necessary to dance.  If you can embrace a girl without your shoulders bashing up your ears, then you have the necessary muscles.  Please don't injure your shoulder the way I did trying to force a muscle action.  Related it to an every day movement and you'll save yourself the heart ache and pain.  

Sorry, I don't mean to bash your coach.  I know she means well, and I know what she means.  It's just that there are better ways to use what you already have.  The funny thing is that after I switched to the Body School method, both my previous coaches say that I have "finally" understood much of what they were trying to teach me back in the day.   Roll Eyes  By the way, they were both fairly recent U.S. professional champions.  The lady was a US and UK Latin champion and the gentleman was a US pro champion.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 01:31:01 PM by Some guy » Logged
cornutt
Administrator
Silver
****
Posts: 1845


« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2010, 09:28:08 PM »

If you can embrace a girl without your shoulders bashing up your ears, then you have the necessary muscles.  Please don't injure your shoulder the way I did trying to force a muscle action.  Related it to an every day movement and you'll save yourself the heart ache and pain.  


Thanks, and I understand the concern.  I should have been clearer with my last post.  I don't think it's a "brute strength" issue so much as an issue of getting the motor nervous system to command the right muscles to do the right things, and keep doing it even after I take my concentration away from it.   Roll Eyes  I'm always fighting the tendency to lift my chest by pulling it up from the shoulders, so what Yulia showed me is helping considerably. 

What did happen to your shoulder?  Was it the result of trying to keep your shoulders down?
Logged
catsmeow
Bronze
*
Posts: 339


« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2010, 10:26:22 PM »

I think I lost the jist of this post when someone used the word didactically but gosh it sounds impressive.
Logged
QPO
reg mods
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20824


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2010, 02:01:56 AM »

I think I lost the jist of this post when someone used the word didactically but gosh it sounds impressive.

I hear you and Know where you are coming from  Tongue
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 35013


ee


« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2010, 03:35:48 AM »

TD used it - I think he just meant 'in teaching'.

People use words that they are familiar with and out of that environment they may sound out of place.  That can go both for erudite words and for street slang.... In this case it was absolutely accurate (that is one word the use of several - it was therefore not a '$200 word' (street slang for an educated word used to impress). Cheesy
Logged

If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1464


« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2010, 12:16:01 PM »

Sorry, didn't mean to be so forward.  It's just that when I hear other people starting to do stuff that injured me, I get very "protective" over whoever is heading the same path I did.
What did happen to your shoulder?  Was it the result of trying to keep your shoulders down?
I think you answered it better than I ever could (I'm not known for my abilities of being succint):
I don't think it's a "brute strength" issue so much as an issue of getting the motor nervous system to command the right muscles to do the right things, and keep doing it even after I take my concentration away from it.  
What I've learned the hard way is that our bodies and brains are not hard wired to work from a lower potential (physical) to a higher potential (mental).  Our bodies are designed to use thought to create action.  

My previous dance teachers used action to train the nervous system and create "feelings" that I try to achieve.  Once it started to "feel good", then it was established that I had mastered the action.  In the time period it takes to "feel good", that's the most dangerous time as that's when all the injuries occur.  My numerous leg joint injuries and shoulder injuries are due to dance teachers getting me to work from a lower potential to a higher potential.  It only takes a second to cause a permanent injury.  Having even a 100-lb partner is enough weight applied to a shoulder the wrong way to create a pretty nasty injury in an instant.  

My previous dance teachers never used thoughts to create actions.  So when my current coach, DSV's sister, worked ONLY from a higher potential to a lower potential, it was a whole new experience.  She told me to embrace her, now fall, walk, and slide, it instantly elevated my dancing to a level I never dreamed I could achieve.  When I teach these same things to the University ballroom clubs I volunteer at, they instantly dance at a level that took me about 6 years to perfect, and even then their movement, posture, and lead/follow skills are better than what I had because after 7 years of dance training I still made the Hunchback of Notre Dame look like he had perfect posture.  So working from a higher potential to a lower potential and possibly relating it to every day activities creates instant results.  You shouldn't have to work on something in order to be able to do it.  You should be able to instantly do it, however small the extent of the action is you are currently capable of creating.  Your mind is able to create actions instantly.  Sure, you might be a little shaky at it at first, and your mind won't be able to create it to your fullest extent possible, but that's what practices are there for.  Like rollerblading, you're a little shaky at first, but then you get better and better at it and faster and faster.  Nobody teaches you the right amount of sway or how/when to do it when turning on rollerblades, how much lowering is necessary, etc.  All you're thinking is, "skate"!  Same with riding a bicycle: nobody taught me how much sway to put in, how to hold the handle bars without my shoulders going up or my chest being in an awkward position, etc.  
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 12:35:23 PM by Some guy » Logged
samina
Silver
**
Posts: 1584



« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2010, 05:18:29 PM »


What I've learned the hard way is that our bodies and brains are not hard wired to work from a lower potential (physical) to a higher potential (mental).  Our bodies are designed to use thought to create action.  

My previous dance teachers used action to train the nervous system and create "feelings" that I try to achieve.  Once it started to "feel good", then it was established that I had mastered the action.  In the time period it takes to "feel good", that's the most dangerous time as that's when all the injuries occur.  My numerous leg joint injuries and shoulder injuries are due to dance teachers getting me to work from a lower potential to a higher potential.  It only takes a second to cause a permanent injury.  Having even a 100-lb partner is enough weight applied to a shoulder the wrong way to create a pretty nasty injury in an instant.  

My previous dance teachers never used thoughts to create actions.  So when my current coach, DSV's sister, worked ONLY from a higher potential to a lower potential, it was a whole new experience.  She told me to embrace her, now fall, walk, and slide, it instantly elevated my dancing to a level I never dreamed I could achieve.  When I teach these same things to the University ballroom clubs I volunteer at, they instantly dance at a level that took me about 6 years to perfect, and even then their movement, posture, and lead/follow skills are better than what I had because after 7 years of dance training I still made the Hunchback of Notre Dame look like he had perfect posture.  So working from a higher potential to a lower potential and possibly relating it to every day activities creates instant results.  You shouldn't have to work on something in order to be able to do it.  You should be able to instantly do it, however small the extent of the action is you are currently capable of creating.  Your mind is able to create actions instantly.  Sure, you might be a little shaky at it at first, and your mind won't be able to create it to your fullest extent possible, but that's what practices are there for.  Like rollerblading, you're a little shaky at first, but then you get better and better at it and faster and faster.  Nobody teaches you the right amount of sway or how/when to do it when turning on rollerblades, how much lowering is necessary, etc.  All you're thinking is, "skate"!  Same with riding a bicycle: nobody taught me how much sway to put in, how to hold the handle bars without my shoulders going up or my chest being in an awkward position, etc.  
make stickie... make stickie.. Wink

thanks for sharing this, SG. was a reminder i needed on a rough day. Smiley
Logged
QPO
reg mods
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20824


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2010, 10:55:07 PM »

the difference for us to having good posture and poor posture is so small but so challenging to maintain...but one we aim to win. Cool
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
QPO
reg mods
Continental Champion
****
Posts: 20824


Adelaide South Australia


« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2010, 02:18:53 AM »

we had a brilliant moment yesterday in relation to this.  when V is standing in correct position he becomes much taller than me and feels more like a breathing wall, it was the first time yesterday in QS that I could feel we maintained a firm but flexible connection, no gapping!... It felt great.

I put that down to both of us maintaining our shape
Logged

Dance is a delicate balance between perfection and beauty.  ~Author Unknown
Dance Forum
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!