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Author Topic: The (new) Quantal Shift topic  (Read 9922 times)
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« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2010, 10:45:07 PM »

I often say that life is simple but we choose to complicate it and that also applies to dancing. And gosh don't we spend so much wasted  time on that. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2010, 10:54:45 PM »

I buy that - but lets not forget that many on PDO are beginning and have to go through the learning vstage to reach the promised land.  Surely we don't want to give the impression that you can go from crib to championship without a substantial amount of work?

Yes ee, there are a few that you and I know that are going to miss out because they don't realize this.
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Everyone tries to rush up through the syllabus levles and think once they are at the top they have arrived.  What they don't realize is that by doing this it is like skimming through a book, you may get the gist but you will never understand the story.
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« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2010, 11:40:09 PM »

I buy that - but lets not forget that many on PDO are beginning and have to go through the learning vstage to reach the promised land.  Surely we don't want to give the impression that you can go from crib to championship without a substantial amount of work?

I dunno ee.  Depends on what qualifies as "work".  The first quantal shift topic is what took me to another level, and with people I help out with dance, some very raw beginners, they seem to "get" the principles without the drama and my idea of what "hard work" used to be. 
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« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2010, 04:01:38 AM »

Your post made me really think about my dances Elise. The only dance I was taught to follow the rhythm was the Tango, and therefore, it has been the bane of my Standard always chasing behind the music. On the other dances, I don't think about timing at all and therefore, I have no issues with it.  I need to really let go of timing in Tango.  I've been so scared to let go of it for fear of being off time.  However, I think that very same fear is keeping me behind the music (fear of stepping out too soon).  I need to just take the plunge and not fear the consequences.  No timing! ...ooh!  Actually I figured out that I have the same issue in Samba and Paso!  Thanks Elise!!!

I think this is a great lesson here. It is a known fact that what you fear becomes your reality.

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"As we understand more things, everthing is becoming simpler"

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« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2010, 04:05:32 AM »

Elise, that reminds me of my favorite quote from the movie, "The Forbidden Kingdom":
 
" Kung Fu, hard work over time to accomplish skill
A painter can have Kung Fu
Or the butcher
Who cuts meat every day with such a skill
His knife never touches bone

Learn the form
But seek the formless
Hear the soundless
Learn it all
then forget it all
Learn the way
Then find your own way

The musician can have Kung Fu
Or the poet who paints pictures with words

But do not name it
for it is like water
Nothing is softer than water
yet it can overcome rock
It does not fight
It flows around the opponent

Formless, nameless

The true master lies within
Only you can free him. "

That is one of my favourite movies too. I actually quoted that same passage to a Japanese student of mine and her dancing went to a whole new level within a few days.
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« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2010, 04:28:11 AM »

It is not in the quantity of work but in the quality of work done. You can work hard for years and make very little progress (and sometimes it even seems like no improvements at all). A few quality points can make the changes that make the difference between making the 3 round in the British or making the top 48 or even 24.

When I first turned professional I was not really that good at all. I had spent years learning to dance and had moved slowly up the ranks but not made any major shift. When I turned professional I started taking lessons with a great master teacher. Within a year I made major changes (more so in thinking then in actions) to my dancing and the result changed dramatically. After about 10 month of being professional, I started training dancers that were in the top dancers (top 24 and top 12 in amateur) in the British open. I was absolutely chocked by how little they knew. They used to beat me and now I was really far ahead of them and within a very short time. I then talked to my teacher about this. He told me that there really wasn’t that big a difference between the top 24 and the finalists. He said that if the dancers in the 24 knew how little it would take to become a finalist with the right information then they would do what it would take to get that information. He said that top dancers pay attention to other details then what most dancers do and that is what brings results. He made it clear that with the right information then most dancers could make major shifts in their dancing in a couple of years or less. I have seen this many time and do have to agree with what I was told by this great master teacher.

DSV
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« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2010, 04:33:02 AM »

I buy that - but lets not forget that many on PDO are beginning and have to go through the learning vstage to reach the promised land.  Surely we don't want to give the impression that you can go from crib to championship without a substantial amount of work?

I dunno ee.  Depends on what qualifies as "work".  The first quantal shift topic is what took me to another level, and with people I help out with dance, some very raw beginners, they seem to "get" the principles without the drama and my idea of what "hard work" used to be.  
You aren't suggeting are you that as long as you are told the right principle two people could walk into a studio as 'one-walkers' and walk out as elegant partnerdancers?  I simply don't buy it.  DSV has described the many hours she spent training and it seems that you do likewise.  We've learned that there are tremendous ways to make that time much more effective - but you do still have to spend the time on the floor to become a dancer.  

Perhaps you could give some specific examples?  Of couples that went from being unable to dance to competing and winning in, say, weeks?
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« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2010, 04:36:00 AM »

But DSV what (as in my previous post) of the very beginner?  I known and appreciate fully how a some approaches to dancing will facilitate learning very greatly (hence the whole body school concept) but even there it takes effort and learning to dance - the purpose of the body school seems to me to make the process natural and efficient - and most of all to avoid the negative training inherent in other systems.  But even with perfect body-school training it takes time, determination and effort to become a dancer.
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« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2010, 05:23:31 AM »

But DSV what (as in my previous post) of the very beginner?  I known and appreciate fully how a some approaches to dancing will facilitate learning very greatly (hence the whole body school concept) but even there it takes effort and learning to dance - the purpose of the body school seems to me to make the process natural and efficient - and most of all to avoid the negative training inherent in other systems.  But even with perfect body-school training it takes time, determination and effort to become a dancer.

I have seen my teacher take a beginner (never danced one step in her life before) and get her to dance with the quality that most people would call gold level, in one hour. I saw him train gold level dancers to the top 48 (in the British Open) in one year. He trained dancers in the top 96 to finalist (in the British Open) in one to two years. I have trained couples from top 48 to finalist (in the British Open) in 2 years using the same system. Finally I came from nothing to something in 2 years.

It is actually easier to train a raw beginner to become a great dancer then somebody that has had any kind of training. When a person has never danced or seen dancing they don’t perceive anything. They just do what they are told to do. When you have a dancer that has had training then the first thing that has to be done is a major clean up. The longer they have danced the longer the clean up is going to take because they think they know what dancing is all about. Most dancers that are in the top 48 (in the British Open) really have no clue, in any way or form, what it will take to make a final. They think they are close but the beginner is actually much closer to making it to the final.

Sorry to be this dead honest but the truth is most dancers have no clue and can’t even imagine what it takes to become a great dancer. I was told this was the truth and I discovered this to be the truth both for myself and from students.

I have also found that people are willing to work efficiently and really hard for a couple of years but not for 10 or more. It is harder to convince somebody when you tell them that they should expect 10 to 20 years of work before they will see any major effect of their effort.

It just doesn’t make sense to me, when a child comes from conception to eating, sitting, walking, running, talking, thinking and reasoning in just 7 years and 9 months. With that in mind does it make sense that an adult takes 10 years to learn to dance a Feather Step or a Rumba Walk? 

DSV
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« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2010, 05:31:58 AM »

Could you do the same thing to a man - I mean take him from nothing to gold in one lesson?  Obviously not.  He has to learn steps and he has to learn to move with a person infront of him.  We talk all the time about 'muscle memory', making new actions automatic in your mind so that you can add to them after.  Muscle memory only occurs with repetition and practise - you can help by imagining but I have seen no evidence that you can replace it entirely.

Surely you don't think that we can make instant champions?  I think to say that here would be to make every member of PDO feel insufficient and incompetent.  Surely dance experience is essential to learn to dance - with whatever system or teacher you have.

By the way, the woman that danced at gold level in one lesson - could she do that with any lead or just with your amazing teacher?  I mean I had a similar experience 20 years ago (with Jim Jenkins) where I did things I could not imagine I would be capable of - but I had no delusion that I could do the same with any other lead.
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« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2010, 05:55:26 AM »

.......it takes time, determination and effort to become a dancer.

What is time? What is a short time and what is a long time? What do you consider short time and what is a long time?

I took 6 years of learning bad stuff, six month to a year to clean up and one year to learn good dancing. Is that a long time? To my teacher it was a very long time, to me it was a long time, to some people it was a short time and to others it was a very short time.

Determination! What is determination and how determinated are you? What some people would consider determination others would say is not.

Effort! What is effort? Same question comes up here. What some people would consider a lot of effort other would say is no effort at all.

Let me compare to the time, determination and effort I put into it. I see some dancers that spend more time, have more determination and use more effort then I did and they get nowhere. I see dancers that have a lot less of all of these qualities and go far. I see dancers that think they have all three and they are nowhere close to having even one of them to the level of top 200 (in the British Open). The dancers that think they have them all are often disappointed with every competition they dance and never really go far but they often have a really high level of confidence.

I have seen lectures where they explained what it would take to become a successful dancer. I think there was about 100 points on the list. I went through the list and only about 60 were true for me and even less for my partner. Mind you, my partner has been very successful in dancing from the second year he danced (probably around 8 years old). I think there are many aspects to success but the first and foremost is the use of the mind.

I think all this is really relative. There are many aspects that make the dancer successful but having a blank slate is the best way to start. Then only put good sound information on the slate and then dance your little heart out.

DSV
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« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2010, 05:59:36 AM »

OK I get that - I know I did it the wrong way and that things could have been much easier - they still could.  But say you start with a 30 yr old man.  How long would it take to make him a champion-level dancer?  And how long for a woman - not just to dance with a super-expert lead but to compete effectively with all the expression, movement etc that would make that trained man want to dance with her (not just be leadable)?

My only point is tha teven with access to perfect training and strategy - it still takes time and it still takes experience.  Thats all.
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« Reply #72 on: May 28, 2010, 06:16:15 AM »

Could you do the same thing to a man - I mean take him from nothing to gold in one lesson?  Obviously not.  He has to learn steps and he has to learn to move with a person infront of him.  We talk all the time about 'muscle memory', making new actions automatic in your mind so that you can add to them after.  Muscle memory only occurs with repetition and practise - you can help by imagining but I have seen no evidence that you can replace it entirely.

My teacher said it would take about a month per dance to get a man from nothing to gold so that would be about 5 months.

By the time we are 7 years old we have physically done all the movements necessary to dance at a world class level. The muscle memory of the actions needed is already there. The male dancer just needs to connect the everyday actions to dance actions so that the realization that they are one and the same is there.

Quote
Surely you don't think that we can make instant champions?  I think to say that here would be to make every member of PDO feel insufficient and incompetent.  Surely dance experience is essential to learn to dance - with whatever system or teacher you have.

If the student is really ready then going from beginner to champion should take no more then 2 years. Most students have to fight two hurtles (1 social consciousness and 2 their own mindset).
I don’t mean to make people feel bad. I am hoping to wake them up and help them realize that they don’t have to be dragged into the social consciousness that is should take years. I am also hoping that dancers will start to see through some of all the bad and miss information that is out there. We all love to dance and wouldn’t it be great to really experience the heavenly feeling of being a great dancer. I am opening the door and hoping that some dancers will step through the door and experience the gift of the heavenly feeling there is on the other side of the door. I can’t force anybody to step through the door nor do I wish to. I do wish for everybody to experience what they want to experience in life. I was just given this great gift and I was told to share it with the world and that is what I am doing as much as possible.

Quote
By the way, the woman that danced at gold level in one lesson - could she do that with any lead or just with your amazing teacher?  I mean I had a similar experience 20 years ago (with Jim Jenkins) where I did things I could not imagine I would be capable of - but I had no delusion that I could do the same with any other lead.

She danced with 6 different initiators in the studio. They were all of different levels. The lowest level was a gold level and the highest was a world professional finalist. When looking at her dancing only…I must say it looked about the same. Looking at the couple then she looked grand with my teacher and great with the professional finalist.  

DSV
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« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2010, 06:24:52 AM »

OK I get that - I know I did it the wrong way and that things could have been much easier - they still could.  But say you start with a 30 yr old man.  How long would it take to make him a champion-level dancer?  And how long for a woman - not just to dance with a super-expert lead but to compete effectively with all the expression, movement etc that would make that trained man want to dance with her (not just be leadable)?

My only point is tha teven with access to perfect training and strategy - it still takes time and it still takes experience.  Thats all.

It is hard to give a precise estimate like that as there are many aspects to success. Also what do you mean by being a champion (local, national or international).

If we are talking a National level then I would say that if a male dancers would do what he was told with no fight and would put aside 6-8 hour a day 5 days a week then it should take no more then 3 years.

I would say if a female under the same conditions (do what she is told and 6-8 hours a day 5 days a week) then it should take no more then 2 years.

These are the numbers that my teacher gave me and those are the numbers that I try to work with.

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« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2010, 07:22:32 AM »

But the point is that with whatever system it does take time.  And during that time there is learning.  And motor learning (all kinds) takes repetition - and repetition is not necessarily fun, some aspects take determination and effort. 

Thats all I was trying to say.  You can not learn to do ballroom dancing without effort and without work.  I don't mean effort in the sense of 'grind' but in the sense of putting your mind and your body on the subject consistently.
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