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Author Topic: I'm Impressed  (Read 5847 times)
pruthe
Bronze
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Posts: 274



« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2010, 09:53:53 PM »

What Is A Troll?

The term derives from "trolling", a style of fishing which involves trailing bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The troll posts a message, often in response to an honest question, that is intended to upset, disrupt or simply insult the group.

Usually, it will fail, as the troll rarely bothers to match the tone or style of the group, and usually its ignorance shows.
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"It's not what you do, but how you do it."

"The Truth in Ballroom Dance is found in the Basic steps."

A.S.
Rugby
Moderator
Gold
****
Posts: 3534



« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2010, 10:57:19 PM »

Hey wait a minute.  My DP and I have won our way up (and against the 20 and 30 year olds) through to Pre-Champ in both latin and standard and we dance to every type of music you can imagine.  When we go social dancing it is at a place where there isn't much in the way of ballroom music and you know, we won our way up having to dance at this place because we have nowhere else to practice.  We also did this by just leading and following 90% of the time rather than having a routine so yes my partner had to improvise.  Since we have reached a very high level yet don't often use strict tempo nor routines then this destroys your argument about ballroom dancers.  I'm not blowing our own horn, just using us as an example.  Maybe there are not alot of us but we are still ballroom dancers.  Ah, and I also do a mean freestyle.  Now my friends who won the world championships in WC and Country can't freestyle and they can't improvise either.  It is what they sacrificed to be able to compete and win.  When I have asked him to dance he can only do his "routine".  Not much in the way of being able to improvise there.  Since they are world champions for the second year running they obviously are the best there is so this negates your argument about other styles.

Again, your point is very valid but it applies to all dancers regardless of the style.  It also depends on what is important to you.  If you want to compete with the top guns, regardless of your style, you will make sacrifices.  Competing and social dancing are two different animals.  Some of us are both, some not.

I now understand where you are coming from.  You are in the same circumstance as the people in my city who don't or can't travel to take lessons from a better class of instructor.  You are stuck with lower level instructors who can only teach routines and to strict tempo music because they have very little understanding of how to do anything else.  They have never really gone anywhere in their own dancing and their teaching is rudimentary at best.  If that is all you have around then this becomes your reality of ballroom dancing.  It is hard to understand something when you have been taught properly.

Over all, some put down others only because they know they will not achieve what they have, so it is easier to tear them down or make fun of them to make oneself feel better.  Everyone loves to pull down the person who has struggled to get their head above the water.  They would rather have everyone drown then see someone other than themselves make it.  When I first started I thought I knew it all.  As time has gone on I have realized I am far from this but it has taken time and knowledge from others to be able to understand this reality.  This will happen for you too and like me, you will look back and laugh at yourself.
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You have to fight through a lot of crap before you find your way up out of the toilet. Sometimes I think I have a good hold on the rim then I slip back in.  Each time I don't sink quite as deep though. - Rugby
samina
Silver
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Posts: 1584



« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2010, 11:34:07 PM »

I haven't the faintest idea what the problem is.

It is that you have been told, across two very active dance forums, by a wide range of experienced ballroom dancers, that ballroom dancing does involve -- and certainly, at its finest, requires -- both improvisation and musicality. And yet you ignore this and assert, quite obnoxiously, your own personal de facto conclusion that ballroom dancing, as a whole entire dance form, involves no improvisation or musicality.

If it's on purpose, then you're trolling. If it's not, well, frankly... you're block-headed.  Roll Eyes

That's pretty much the core turn-off as I see it, alba.
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ZPomeroy
Moderator
Intermediate Silver
****
Posts: 1464


Victoria, Australia


« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2010, 12:32:54 AM »

I think it's time for another ban?

Zac
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Dance is poetry written for the feet, read by the heart, and destined for the soul.
albanaich
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 236


« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2010, 05:25:25 AM »

And then someone posts a complete sequence list of moves to be done irrelevant to what the music is and everyone thinks its a great idea.

Doesn't that absolutely contradict what was just posted about there being musicality in Ballroom?

I can understand why people are gettiing upset, they are saying one thing and doing another and the psychological conflict is stressing people out.

Where is the problem is in actually facing up to what you are doing? What is so terrible in admitting that you create patterns and routines and follow that are largely irrelevant to the music that is playing.

If not as if you are listening to the music as it played and thinking, 'there's a break in the music coming up' I'll pur a corte in there, or, there's a chance in emphasis, that I can fit with a quisk.












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elisedance
Administrator
Blackpool Finalist
*****
Posts: 34896


ee


« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2010, 06:57:44 AM »

And then someone posts a complete sequence list of moves to be done irrelevant to what the music is and everyone thinks its a great idea.

Doesn't that absolutely contradict what was just posted about there being musicality in Ballroom?

I can understand why people are gettiing upset, they are saying one thing and doing another and the psychological conflict is stressing people out.

Where is the problem is in actually facing up to what you are doing? What is so terrible in admitting that you create patterns and routines and follow that are largely irrelevant to the music that is playing.

If not as if you are listening to the music as it played and thinking, 'there's a break in the music coming up' I'll pur a corte in there, or, there's a chance in emphasis, that I can fit with a quisk.













clueless in scotland...
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Lioness
Open Gold
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Posts: 4322



WWW
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2010, 07:17:50 AM »


If not as if you are listening to the music as it played and thinking, 'there's a break in the music coming up' I'll pur a corte in there, or, there's a chance in emphasis, that I can fit with a quisk.


Which works if you're musically inclined, familiar with the piece, or familiar with similar pieces.

I am rather musical and have a good ear, however I am not good at telling what is coming up (unless you count melodically). I can tell you when a song 'starts' - when it stops being the intro. I can the phrases. I can dance to the phrases. And I can tell when people are off phrase.

Where I live, we do a lot of sequence dancing. This means that we all learn a preconceived sequence (shock horror!) and dance it to a piece of music. This sequence is maybe 8 bars long (as an example)
So the music we dance it to has 8 bar phrases. You start at the end of a 4 bar introduction, and dance the sequence to the phrase. The majority of people are ignorant of this. Some can tell if they stuff up a little and get out of sequence with the music.

People can still enjoy dancing, and be good at dancing, without being able to improvise to music.

You've stated your point - that ballroom dancers can't dance. You have given us tons of 'evidence' to support this dance, and we have told you that the type of dance you are thinking of is different to ballroom entirely. You still insist on telling us we can't dance.

And it's really starting to annoy me.

Different types of dance.

Differing opinion.

We've worked that out; not all dance is the same.

Let it rest.

Or go away.
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albanaich
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 236


« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2010, 10:22:35 AM »

You've worked out Lioness  and I completely agree with what you are saying - I'm not sure everyone else has. . . .. . .

I've not stated ballroom dance 'can't dance', I said what they do as 'dance' is completely incomprehensible to improvisational dancer.

It's the gulf between classical music and jazz.

Most people - and that includes Swing and Argentine Tango dancers have difficulty improvising to the music.

What concerns me, and its found in all dance forms, but especially Ballroom is the pursuit of technical and physcial excellence at the expense of musicality.

Here's a perfectly awful example from Argentine Tango. You don't actually have to look at the dancers - you can tell from the choice music that its going to be bad, you can't 'do anything' with the musiic. its like a dancer who needs 'strict tempo' wheres the challenge in dancing to strict tempo?

You can only create the challenge by making the physicallity of it ever more demanding and so as the dance becomes more 'physcial' the music has to be dumbed down further and further.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2kJsVv6gOs

People are going round proclaiming this is 'great dancing' when its not. It's very much a case of the 'Emperors new suit of clothes'







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Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1437


« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2010, 12:19:06 PM »

Albanaich, let me put this to you as gently as possible.  Any pattern in ballroom dancing can be danced 10-million different ways to express the music. If you don't know that, then let me enlighten you and tell you that it should probably be your goal to be able to do that if you want to improve.  It's an easy excuse for you never to improve by saying that such a goal is unachievable in ballroom dance.  Ballet is a set of steps/patterns, WCS is a set of steps/patterns, hip hop is a set of steps/patterns which they use as a medium through which to interpret the music.  Ballroom dancing is no different, except for the fact that it has evolved considerably more than the other dances in the partnership aspect of it giving it a dynamic that makes it very hard for most people to wrap their heads around.  Since improvement and mastery of the basics takes MUCH longer than most other forms of dance, mainly due to the partnering aspect of it (and all the personal and emotional problems that brings), it's easy to sit back and imagine a set of inherent limitations.

You haven't taken the trouble to master it, nor will you ever with your current attitude.  Your mention of your coaches, lessons, and commitment to ballroom dancing means as much to me as my commitment to start eating vegetables by dipping my chips in salsa.  You, at your current level, believe a Waltz natural turn is 1-2-3, strict tempo, no room for improvisation.  Well, that tells me that you're not even at the level of most beginners who understand that the goal of ballroom dancing is to be able to interpret music and express yourself.  You'll never get any better because you have decided that the level you're at is the only level to be at.  You signed up for ballroom dancing and instead of seeing the possibilities (which require a lot of hard work and effort to master) you imagined a set of a limitations that will keep you squarely where you're at and make you feel good about your utterly pitiful understanding of the subject (given the training and the time you put into it).  

I will no longer waste my time on you.  For all intensive purposes, you're a troll.  I'm not feeding you anymore.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 12:33:43 PM by Some guy » Logged
albanaich
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 236


« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2010, 01:03:18 PM »

Yeah. . . . .and that's why ballroom dancers needs strict tempo music. . . ..

The actual physical evidence, that even at very high competion levels the music danced to by ballroom has had much of the muscial structure removed, tells me that what you are claiming has no basis in fact.

It's like telling me you're a 'great driver' but you've never used a stick shift.

Calling me troll for pointing out that contradiction does not change the facts.

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samina
Silver
**
Posts: 1584



« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2010, 01:30:16 PM »

It's very much like that, alba (improvising to music), tho usually at higher levels because there is so much to learn and master before one is able to do that. A pattern of sequences is ultimately a suggestion, or strings of "hidden choreography" that are possibilities of what can be danced at any given moment.
You are universalizing your experience either of what *you* do or what your instructor is showing you, or what you are seeing at the more inexperienced level of dancing ballroom as compared to the improvisation that occurs early on in the other styles.

Are you able yet to understand and accept that? You have been told such things so many times...
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Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1437


« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2010, 01:45:08 PM »

I'm just utterly baffled that you find anything offensive.

Considering my Ballroom dance coach and I can have this conversation FACE to FACE without either of us getting  upset, I haven't the faintest idea what the problem is.

Oh, forgot to address the above quote.  You do realize that you're PAYING your instructor.  If you paid me an hourly rate, I would gladly listen to your drivel.  Then not having to actually teach you anything because your cup is already so full will be the easiest job in the world: easier than taking candy from a baby because there's no guilt involved since the candy (money) is willingly exchanged!

Ask yourself this: we have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to some of the best coaches this planet has to offer here on PDO.  The fact that some of their students are world finalists are confirmation of their caliber.  They all stay clear away from you as they've written you off as a lost cause.  So please, try NOT paying an instructor and ask them to listen to your theories.  Let me know how that goes... Oh wait, I already know as I've asked the other coaches here on PDO.  
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samina
Silver
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Posts: 1584



« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2010, 01:51:06 PM »

Ask yourself this: we have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to some of the best coaches this planet has to offer here on PDO.  The fact that some of their students are world finalists are confirmation of their caliber.    
i don't believe this counts for much to alba, as i know he has found slavik's dancing, for example, "grotesque".  Roll Eyes

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Some guy
Intermediate Silver
*
Posts: 1437


« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2010, 01:56:22 PM »

Of course not!  He's justifying his inabilities and looking to PDO for third party verification.  Someday he'll realize that PDO is not the place to come to if you want your laziness, inabilities, and short-sightedness fostered (and festered). Then hopefully he'll go elsewhere. 
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albanaich
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 236


« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2010, 02:25:18 PM »

As yes Samina, I do find most 'Champion Standard and Latin Dancers' grotesque. . ..  . . when I say most, I mean I haven't found one I wanted to watch, though there must be one out there.

That's a subjective opinion that I think is shared by many non-ballroom dancers. . . ..

I'm not justifying my inabilites, just perplexed why someone would want to so much effort in to looking so horrible.

I mean this 'real' cha cha cha looks good, its smooth, rolls with the music, lovely dancing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWUycViLg2w

This just looks totally unrhythmic. . . . .all those snappy steps and grotesque arm movements have nothing to do with the music. It's just awfuil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISmOGkAniZ4



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