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Author Topic: The perfect follower (PF) .... what is she like?  (Read 15189 times)
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2010, 09:33:34 PM »

Thanks for replying EE. Your post brings up another question for me. Is a fully developed frame really comfortable? For me to hold it ninety seconds long can be a trying experience.
Interesting that you raise that.  DP has been complaining about his arms getting tired of late.  I must be bearing down on him somehow.  Obviously both partners are responsible for maintaining the frame...

Oh, and yes, a good frame is a total delight - but I'm sure your partner has told you that many times Wink
ee
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albanaich
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« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2010, 10:22:18 AM »

As I've said before, I know two dancers, one a very good competitive dancer who you can only lead in an enviromnet they are famiiliar and another girl who you can lead in just about any dance form straight of the bat, no experience of the dance at all.

The second is an absolute dream to dance with, but she's never going to win any competitions. Completely the wrong mind set.

It's got to be a matter of personal choice- niche perfection or all round ability. You can't have both.

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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2010, 10:26:07 AM »

As I've said before, I know two dancers, one a very good competitive dancer who you can only lead in an enviromnet they are famiiliar and another girl who you can lead in just about any dance form straight of the bat, no experience of the dance at all.

The second is an absolute dream to dance with, but she's never going to win any competitions. Completely the wrong mind set.

It's got to be a matter of personal choice- niche perfection or all round ability. You can't have both.

Yes. You have and its really, really boring.

I get your first part - its the last line thats rediculous.  How do you know that the 'other girl' could not win a dance competition - all she needs to do is to add to her following skills the skills necessary to dance ballroom.

And no its not one or the other.  And no you are not the world expert on this.  And no noone is going to believe you any more just because you say it over and over and over. 
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cornutt
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« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2010, 10:57:42 AM »


Interesting that you raise that.  DP has been complaining about his arms getting tired of late.  I must be bearing down on him somehow.  Obviously both partners are responsible for maintaining the frame...

I think some couples push off of each other up top, in an effort to maintain their own toplines.  I've had times when I felt like my partner was pushing the top of my torso away from her with her left arm; perhaps I was pushing on her too, but either way, we were extended too far.  In any event, it caused a stress in my upper arms and shoulders that was very similar to the feeling of being leaned on.

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cornutt
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« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2010, 11:13:40 AM »

Thanks for replying EE. Your post brings up another question for me. Is a fully developed frame really comfortable? For me to hold it ninety seconds long can be a trying experience.

Well, it depends on the definition of "fully developed".   Grin  I personally think a properly formed topline is a lot more comfortable than a sloppy one; when I have the weight of my arms and shoulders properly set on top of my spine, I can hold that all day.  But if I'm just holding my arms out in front of me, with nothing holding the weight except for my biceps and shoulder muscles, that becomes tiring very quickly. 

You ever see one of those big tower cranes that they use at large construction sites?  You look at one of those things and you wonder how it can hold up its own weight, much less the weight of the stuff that it lifts.  It works because it's what engineers call a "cantilever".  It's actually balanced on top of the tower.  The short end of the arm has a big counterweight on it that supplies enough opposing force to counterbalance the weight of the longer end of the arm.  When the crane picks up or puts down something, the counterweight moves a bit so as to change the opposing force and keep the load balanced.

If your arms, shoulders, and backbone are working together, it works like that crane.  The weight of the shoulder bones and backbone (along with a little help from the upper back muscles) provides the counter-balancing force for the weight of the extended arms.  It all balances on top of the spine, and once you get it figured out, it requires surprisingly little effort to hold that position.  That's what I call a "fully developed" frame, and IHMO, it is the only way to do it. 

Now, in competition dancing, we put in additional effort into maintaining that big look to the top line.  That does require more energy to keep your shoulders in a nice big line and so forth, but it doesn't have much to do with frame per se; it's mostly a styling point.  One of the fundamental rules of social dancing is: don't show up your partner.  So if your partner doesn't want to or isn't capable of creating the big-top-line-look, don't do that.  However, do still maintain a properly cantilevered frame.  It makes the dancing much more pleasant for both partners, and it will still look good without being showoff-ish.
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albanaich
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« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2010, 11:25:05 AM »

I think if you are to do any form of dance extremely well, whether that is Ballet, Highland Dancing, Swing or Ballroom dancing you must develop certain traits and habits that are particular to that dance.

There's a particular trait Highland dancers have of centreing their weight when doing Argentine Tango - you can feel it. Ballet dancers have a particular way of holding themselves.

If you are used to being lead from the hips, it takes a while to convert to being lead from the chest. If you are used to driving a VW Beetle, there is going to be some gear crucnhing to start with if you are driving a low-loader.

If I specialise in driving racing cars, I'm going to develop habits that make driving a truck difficult.

I'm not saying that you she couldn't learn competitive ballroom, but that if she did, she would lose all the flexibility and versatiliy that makes her a perforect follower in all the other dance forms.

The 100 m sprint and the Pentathlon are two different sports.
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albanaich
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Posts: 236


« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2010, 11:33:40 AM »

What's boring about it?

Isn't the debate about whether we are seeking perfect physical movement in dance or perfect communication a very interestng one?

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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2010, 11:36:01 AM »

I'm not saying that you she couldn't learn competitive ballroom, but that if she did, she would lose all the flexibility and versatiliy that makes her a perforect follower in all the other dance forms.

So your 'theory' (dogma) is that there are no dancers who can are excellent at following in ballroom and any other partner dance.

What I love most about your comments is that they leave so much room for debate and contrary opinion.  Tongue

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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

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albanaich
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Posts: 236


« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2010, 12:34:22 PM »

I suppose there are people out there who are gold medal Olympic swimmers, runners and gymnasts - but I haven't met many of them.

Neither have I encountered top class Swing dancers who are champiions at Standard, International Latin and Argentine Tango.

The closest I can think of was the late Jason Colchacino who was both a top class WCS dancer and Argentine Tango performer.

Perhaps you can provide us with the some examples that would refute my theory?

And isn't debate and contray opinions what a flourishing and dynamic message board is all about? If everyone agreed with each other it would be a very boring world indeed.
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samina
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« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2010, 12:49:07 PM »

I dance with a friend who is very thin and athletic and it feels like moving a rusty iron robot around...

What a great analogy, lol... Smiley
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samina
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« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2010, 12:51:37 PM »



I would think in reality, yea! If I want more from my follow, I would give her more as a lead! That's what I've been told and I agree with it.


I give back what I'm given. If I get no frame, I give no frame. If I get a change of direction halfway through a turn, that's what he gets (although he'd likely deny that's what he asked for). If I get a firm, tense grip, that's what he gets. If I get weightless, intuitive, framed and informed lead, after I'm done fainting with joy, I give frame, intelligence, and willingness to follow.

Niiice.

Quote
Should I give something different? Try to introduce frame to a man who does not ask for it, for instance?
I've tried that. It's exhausting. So much easier (and enjoyable) to just match and let go of expectations, IMO. Unless it's short-term, such as in practicing a sequence in a group lesson.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 12:53:36 PM by samina » Logged
samina
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« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2010, 01:00:20 PM »



I'm not saying that you she couldn't learn competitive ballroom, but that if she did, she would lose all the flexibility and versatiliy that makes her a perforect follower in all the other dance forms.

Crikey, that's a buncha bunk. It's my devotion to learning competitive ballroom that made me gain the flexibility and versatility I have in other dance forms... What it is, dear alba, is that you simply do not realize the powerful flexibility, versatility, being in the moment and "listening" skills required to be a competitive ballroomer. Lead and follow is lead and follow. A sentient, sensitive, relational body and mind is a sentient, sensitive, relational body and mind. Period.
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albanaich
Intermediate Bronze

Posts: 236


« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2010, 01:15:51 PM »

No Sam - that's your opinion.

Like I've said, if that was the case we would see lots of top class dancers able to transfer between , International Latin, Standard, Argentine Tango and Swing.

We don't see that.

You are invited to show that is wrong, but if you can't my theory holds and your opinions have no evidential basis.

I think its fairly self-evident that no one can be an expert at everything.

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elisedance
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ee


« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2010, 01:21:54 PM »

And isn't debate and contray opinions what a flourishing and dynamic message board is all about? If everyone agreed with each other it would be a very boring world indeed.

Yes.  There you have it.  But to debate civily you have to a) recognize that others have equally valid opinions and b) that you might be wrong.

If you presented your 'ideas' as that there would be no problem but you keep stating them as generally accepted facts.  Its pretty obvious that they are neither general nor accepted - at least here.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
elisedance
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ee


« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2010, 01:25:25 PM »

I think its fairly self-evident that no one can be an expert at everything.

That in itself is a reasonable opinion - but its way, way beyond your original statement that referred to if someone was an expert in one thing (ballroom) they could not also be at another (another dance form).

Its like saying banana can not be eaten with oranges.  And then saying its pretty obvious that every food can not be eaten with every other food!!  Your extravances with logic are tiresome.



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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
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