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Author Topic: The perfect follower (PF) .... what is she like?  (Read 15610 times)
cornutt
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2010, 09:47:27 PM »

I enjoy ladies who dance with me weightlessly.  Where we have a very light touch and respond.

It's weird: I've heard a lot of leads say that they would like to have the lightest-touch follow possible.  However, I've danced with a few high-level ladies who followed very, very lightly, and I actually found it a bit disconcerting.  Maybe it's just a reflection of my own skill level, but I find that I need a follow who is -- not heavy, certainly, but a bit more "positive".  Without it, I don't feel like I'm getting any feedback from the follow.  The best analogy I can come up with is: there were some cars made in the 1950s and 60s that had power steering that was way over-boosted.  The car was very easy to drive, in the sense that the steering wheel required next to no effort to turn, but there was no "road feel".  If a change in the pavement or the winds caused the car to start drifting out of its lane, you couldn't tell until you noticed it visually, by which time you had drifted over several feet.  It could leave you wondering if the steering wheel was actually connected to anything.
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cornutt
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2010, 09:49:00 PM »

She is lovely -- or at least she is while she's dancing with you

Any woman who accepts a dance from me is, by my definition, lovely.   Cool
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drj
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 10:25:10 AM »

She is lovely -- or at least she is while she's dancing with you

Any woman who accepts a dance from me is, by my definition, lovely.   Cool

What a pity you're so far away. Wink
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ancora imparo
elisedance
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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2010, 02:53:26 PM »

We are SO going to have to have a PDO ball...
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
drj
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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2010, 07:19:45 PM »



I would think in reality, yea! If I want more from my follow, I would give her more as a lead! That's what I've been told and I agree with it.


I give back what I'm given. If I get no frame, I give no frame. If I get a change of direction halfway through a turn, that's what he gets (although he'd likely deny that's what he asked for). If I get a firm, tense grip, that's what he gets. If I get weightless, intuitive, framed and informed lead, after I'm done fainting with joy, I give frame, intelligence, and willingness to follow.

Should I give something different? Try to introduce frame to a man who does not ask for it, for instance? On at least two recent occasions at socials, I have been asked to "frame up" by leads, and I have been effusive in my thanks for their request. So many leads at socials do not have the slightest clue of frame, I do not start a dance with frame. Is this a mistake? Am I underestimating my leaders, and making myself look bad as well?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 07:21:57 PM by drj » Logged

ancora imparo
elisedance
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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 07:34:04 PM »

to be honest, I've stopped doing socials.  And thats both for the men there and myself.  To dance without frame or position would only be to undermine all the work I've put into developing this far.  Least thats how I feel (its a moot point here anyway, if you have a partner no other man would DREAM of asking you to dance - it would be like asking to sleep with someone's wife....

But if I did I would present frame and everything to see hom much he could deal with.  After all, one might just meet an ex dance champion Cheesy

I'm also a dreamer....
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
drj
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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 07:47:05 PM »

to be honest, I've stopped doing socials.  And thats both for the men there and myself.  To dance without frame or position would only be to undermine all the work I've put into developing this far.  Least thats how I feel (its a moot point here anyway, if you have a partner no other man would DREAM of asking you to dance - it would be like asking to sleep with someone's wife....

But if I did I would present frame and everything to see hom much he could deal with.  After all, one might just meet an ex dance champion Cheesy

I'm also a dreamer....

I have discussed this with my instructor; at a certain point in my lessons, I wondered if I could ever be happy dancing at a social again. He discouraged me from dropping socials. He was right, for several reasons:
--dancing is not all about perfection
--the practice in following all kinds of leads is invaluable
--the connection is delicious, when it works
--it is a far, far better thing to dance imperfectly than not to dance at all
--social dancing is how I got into this life in the first place; why give it up?
--I appreciate him more (doubt this was on his mind, but it's sure on mine)

yes, dancing without frame/style/etc undermines my hard work -- if I let it. So I compartmentalize: dance like X for socials, dance like Z for "serious". And yes, every now and then, I do encounter someone who dances like a dream. Beats the pants off staying home and practicing by myself.
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ancora imparo
elisedance
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2010, 08:46:51 PM »

All good points.  And I promise you, if I did not have a partner I'd be out there at every social I could find time for... (as I used to)
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
albanaich
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2010, 04:43:18 PM »

Interesting points about 'frame' drg as before Christmas I was doing 'dance dummy' for a group of novices, both male and female. They had all been dancing for months but none of them had any idea about 'frame' or as we refer to it obliquly in Swing - connection.

The girls were easier to teach in the sense that you just told them to balance the connection they got from me,

'If I hold a pound of sugar, you've got to give me the same wieght back, when you start to get really good, you can put the wieght right down to ounces, but for now just imagine we are both holding the same bag of sugar." That worked quite well.

The guys are in their teens and twenties so dancing with them was not an option. so I got round it by getting the connection right with the female partner that getting the girll to tell the guy exactly what was different about the way I held her and the way her novice partner held her.  I actually went down a line doing it with each partnership.

I have to say it wasn't my original idea because I had been shown this way of teaching 'frame' (independently) in both Modern Jive and WCS, it just surprises me I've never encountered it in Ballroom
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drj
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2010, 06:53:26 PM »

Interesting points about 'frame' drg as before Christmas I was doing 'dance dummy' for a group of novices, both male and female. They had all been dancing for months but none of them had any idea about 'frame' or as we refer to it obliquly in Swing - connection.

The girls were easier to teach in the sense that you just told them to balance the connection they got from me,

'If I hold a pound of sugar, you've got to give me the same wieght back, when you start to get really good, you can put the wieght right down to ounces, but for now just imagine we are both holding the same bag of sugar." That worked quite well.

I have to say it wasn't my original idea because I had been shown this way of teaching 'frame' (independently) in both Modern Jive and WCS, it just surprises me I've never encountered it in Ballroom

You haven't encountered it in ballroom b/c it does not teach frame. Frame and connection are different, not oblique references to each other. The pound of sugar image works for connection beautifully, but it doesn't do anything for frame, ime. I encountered it when my instructor was valiantly trying to teach me WCS, back when I was a complete and utter newbie and had not a clue that such things as frame and connection existed and were desirable. The poor man is still working on my frame Sad but I'm doing OK at connection.

I somehow feel Elise is about to make a thread...
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ancora imparo
cornutt
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2010, 08:00:13 PM »



Should I give something different? Try to introduce frame to a man who does not ask for it, for instance?

Well, consider that they may have grown accustomed to follows who don't give them any frame.  And some of those follows may not be giving them frame because they've been dancing with other leads who don't give them frame, and obviously it becomes a downward spiral.  So when you encounter a new partner, give 'em a good frame and just see what happens.  Of course, if you dance with a partner who never gives you any frame, then don't knock yourself out trying to push that wet noodle uphill.  They aren't paying you enough to instruct them.

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drj
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2010, 08:48:49 PM »


 Of course, if you dance with a partner who never gives you any frame, then don't knock yourself out trying to push that wet noodle uphill.  They aren't paying you enough to instruct them.



LOL thanks for the advice.  Grin
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ancora imparo
catsmeow
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2010, 08:57:26 PM »

am I reading this right?  the better the frame the dreamier the dance? I dont look for frame at a social dance. come to think of it, I have a terrible frame but I am working on it.
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elisedance
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2010, 08:58:43 PM »

Interesting points about 'frame' drg as before Christmas I was doing 'dance dummy' for a group of novices, both male and female. They had all been dancing for months but none of them had any idea about 'frame' or as we refer to it obliquly in Swing - connection.

The girls were easier to teach in the sense that you just told them to balance the connection they got from me,

'If I hold a pound of sugar, you've got to give me the same wieght back, when you start to get really good, you can put the wieght right down to ounces, but for now just imagine we are both holding the same bag of sugar." That worked quite well.

I have to say it wasn't my original idea because I had been shown this way of teaching 'frame' (independently) in both Modern Jive and WCS, it just surprises me I've never encountered it in Ballroom

You haven't encountered it in ballroom b/c it does not teach frame. Frame and connection are different, not oblique references to each other. The pound of sugar image works for connection beautifully, but it doesn't do anything for frame, ime. I encountered it when my instructor was valiantly trying to teach me WCS, back when I was a complete and utter newbie and had not a clue that such things as frame and connection existed and were desirable. The poor man is still working on my frame Sad but I'm doing OK at connection.

I somehow feel Elise is about to make a thread...

Cheesy

why doesn't drj? Roll Eyes
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
cornutt
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 10:34:19 PM »

am I reading this right?  the better the frame the dreamier the dance? I dont look for frame at a social dance. come to think of it, I have a terrible frame but I am working on it.

Er... this hits me the wrong way, a bit.  I think I get what you meant, but it comes across reading to me like social dancing should be "anything goes" as far as technique.  My own take is that just because it's a social dance does not excuse me doing a half-@$$ed job of it.  Dancing's not much fun if we're just plodding around.  I may not be dancing with full-up comp technique, but I'm still going to try to make it a good dance. 
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