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Author Topic: On Time: getting there, staying there  (Read 12077 times)
Some guy
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« Reply #195 on: October 31, 2011, 01:14:07 PM »

In the Body School, timing, direction, power, and steps (when, where, how much, and what) are the man's jobs.

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elisedance
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« Reply #196 on: October 31, 2011, 01:35:29 PM »

OK so tell me SG - it might be the man's job but does the responder Wink have to also listen to the beat of the music? 
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Some guy
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« Reply #197 on: October 31, 2011, 03:13:53 PM »

Depends where the music is coming from.  I know a Body School coach that put earplugs in the lady's ears for Blackpool.  They made the youth final.  The man listens to the music coming out of the speakers.  The lady listens to the music coming out of the man.

Ladies and men hear music differently, usually the ladies hear it early. The lady will feel that she moves really late, but in actuality it will be in time with the music (provided the man can hear the music properly).   
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 03:19:49 PM by Some guy » Logged
QPO
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« Reply #198 on: November 01, 2011, 06:47:08 AM »

Depends where the music is coming from.  I know a Body School coach that put earplugs in the lady's ears for Blackpool.  They made the youth final.  The man listens to the music coming out of the speakers.  The lady listens to the music coming out of the man.

Ladies and men hear music differently, usually the ladies hear it early. The lady will feel that she moves really late, but in actuality it will be in time with the music (provided the man can hear the music properly).   

interesting that you say this. V always says when we do a particular foxtrot in NV that I dance on the beat and he tries to extend it. I just move with the flow of the music. it annoys him terribly but if I were to wear ear plugs would I dance it differently
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elisedance
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« Reply #199 on: November 01, 2011, 08:51:02 AM »

Depends where the music is coming from.  I know a Body School coach that put earplugs in the lady's ears for Blackpool.  They made the youth final.  The man listens to the music coming out of the speakers.  The lady listens to the music coming out of the man.

Ladies and men hear music differently, usually the ladies hear it early. The lady will feel that she moves really late, but in actuality it will be in time with the music (provided the man can hear the music properly).   

Well, thats the way I have been dancing as I've written often - but now we have a new coach and he is encouraging me to count- my DP loves it because he has a tendency to go off time.  However, I don't think its a cure but a panacea - we could end up with me on time and he a fraction before it!  thats neither going to feel like dancing (least to me) nor look right to the judges. 

I am resisting... Undecided

The fact is when I watch the coach dance with his partner (they are previous champions having won the German Open (amateur I think) and Polish championships - she dances like I do without even knowing it. 

What I am learning is that it might be possible to listen to the beat and yet also dance to the man.  Does your coach ever talk about that scenario?  I think it would take a new set of skills...
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Spiral
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« Reply #200 on: November 01, 2011, 09:35:21 AM »

Depends where the music is coming from.  I know a Body School coach that put earplugs in the lady's ears for Blackpool.  They made the youth final.  The man listens to the music coming out of the speakers.  The lady listens to the music coming out of the man.

Ladies and men hear music differently, usually the ladies hear it early. The lady will feel that she moves really late, but in actuality it will be in time with the music (provided the man can hear the music properly).   

The more important question is what kind of ear plugs were they using that it would cut out the music completely! I need to get me some of these Smiley
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Some guy
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Posts: 1437


« Reply #201 on: November 01, 2011, 10:49:07 AM »

Well, thats the way I have been dancing as I've written often - but now we have a new coach and he is encouraging me to count- my DP loves it because he has a tendency to go off time.
 
I am resisting... Undecided

Good idea to resist.  If it wasn't broke, why fix it?!  Also, if your partner had trouble staying on time, it's because he was trying to stay on time.  The man's job is to keep the lady on time.  Ask him to dance you on time, forget about his timing, and see how that works.  That's when it becomes really important for the lady to listen to the music coming out of the man. 
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Some guy
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Posts: 1437


« Reply #202 on: November 01, 2011, 10:56:15 AM »

The fact is when I watch the coach dance with his partner (they are previous champions having won the German Open (amateur I think) and Polish championships - she dances like I do without even knowing it.  
I would almost guarantee it, nobody knows what they think their doing.  There are many out there who have no clue about what their doing.  They just know how to do it.  We all have that problem: try to explain to someone how to walk.  You can't tell someone what to do, you can only make them do it.  Telling them what to do misses out too many parts of the picture.  We think that when we walk our legs are active... are they?... or are they passive?  What role does our sternum play?  What about shoulders... then make matters worse... what about gender?!  A painting is worth a million words (?!).  Imagine a painting of a man.  So if the guy explains an elbow to you, a knee, a finger, and an ear, or even every other part of the painting he saw would you come up with the same picture that he's trying to describe to you?  That only way he can make you have the same picture that he has in his mind is if he makes you experience that picture.  A good teacher will help you find your own way, not try to dictate the way... 'cause too much is missed that way.  Most coaches that dictate a way end up missing most of the picture because: 1) his perception of what he does and how he does it is SO different to what the student perceives 2) there is too much vital information that is missed out.

The only chance you have of understanding what he's saying is if you too were a German and Polish Open champion and you had the same up bringing that he did... and even then there'll be too much lost in the translation.  Knowing how to get a student to experience information is very different from telling them what they should be experiencing.  That's why the Body School is so hard to put down on paper.  
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 10:58:53 AM by Some guy » Logged
Some guy
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« Reply #203 on: November 01, 2011, 11:02:44 AM »

What I am learning is that it might be possible to listen to the beat and yet also dance to the man.  Does your coach ever talk about that scenario?  I think it would take a new set of skills...
Yes, the new skill is to smile and nod to your coach, and do exactly what you were doing before.  I'm not kidding.  If possible, just do MORE of what you were doing before. 

Of course, you have to figure out how to solve the problem of timing so that your coach won't see a mistake (and try to fix it).  My advice is to try and have your partner only dance you to the music at least until he changes his perception of timing... 'cause what he has right now is not working.  His timing will take care of itself if he dances you to time.     
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elisedance
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« Reply #204 on: November 01, 2011, 01:46:48 PM »

.....if your partner had trouble staying on time, it's because he was trying to stay on time.  The man's job is to keep the lady on time.  Ask him to dance you on time, forget about his timing, and see how that works.  That's when it becomes really important for the lady to listen to the music coming out of the man. 

What an interesting concept.
Where is the 'Like' button on this site anyway? Grin Tongue
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

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elisedance
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« Reply #205 on: November 01, 2011, 01:48:04 PM »

What I am learning is that it might be possible to listen to the beat and yet also dance to the man.  Does your coach ever talk about that scenario?  I think it would take a new set of skills...
Yes, the new skill is to smile and nod to your coach, and do exactly what you were doing before.  I'm not kidding.  If possible, just do MORE of what you were doing before. 

The problem is they want me to count out loud during the practises.  Can you imagine?  How horific - how can I count and dance?
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
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« Reply #206 on: November 01, 2011, 02:46:30 PM »

The problem is they want me to count out loud during the practises.  Can you imagine?  How horific - how can I count and dance?
I would say the answer is, "impossible".  According to Benny Tolmeyer (the guy who trained pretty much every world champion there ever was prior to his death in the 90's) it's not possible to count and dance.  You can dance, and your coach can count it.  However, your weight would never be in the right place if you try to count and dance. One trick I found is instead of stepping as you count, imagine each count as the ribbon that runners charge through at the finish line.  So you can count as you dance, but you'll find yourself going through the count (possible) instead of stepping TO the count (impossible).  To appease your coach, you will have to learn your count.  However, just picture each count as the ribbon your body breaks through at a finish line in a foot race.  When you dance with your partner, forget the count.  It's unfortunate because you have to do extra things to appease your coach that don't really help with the dancing.  My solution to that was drop all such coaches.   Grin
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 02:48:44 PM by Some guy » Logged
elisedance
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« Reply #207 on: November 01, 2011, 03:59:10 PM »


...It's unfortunate because you have to do extra things to appease your coach that don't really help with the dancing.  My solution to that was drop all such coaches.   Grin

Well there's the rub - this is by far the best coach I've found to work with my DP.  Its a special case that goes beyond the nuts and bolts of dancing - we may have made more progress in the last three lessons than in the previous 30.  Hopefully, this is just interim but for now its the right thing to do.
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
Some guy
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« Reply #208 on: November 01, 2011, 04:43:50 PM »

Best thing to do is then to realize that in this particular case, you know what he and his partner do better than he himself does, but act blissfully unaware and do exactly as he says.  All relationships require compromise.  In another sense, he's teaching you to be a good teacher by making you know things you're not supposed to know until you start teaching other men. 
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elisedance
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« Reply #209 on: November 01, 2011, 06:52:39 PM »

Best thing to do is then to realize that in this particular case, you know what he and his partner do better than he himself does, but act blissfully unaware and do exactly as he says.  All relationships require compromise.  In another sense, he's teaching you to be a good teacher by making you know things you're not supposed to know until you start teaching other men. 
Thats a neat approach.  OTOH I already know alot of hit steps Cheesy  Sometimes I think on a practical level would work a lot better if we could simply reverse roles.  Fortunately, we can't since then there wouldn't be much point in me dancing....
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If you must leave the house, go build a home...

The limit of your love is also the limit of your art...
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