Phrasing, if steps are words, phrases are....

[TangoDancer]

[Excuse me for starting this with TD's post but we have no topic on phrasing and its something I know almost nothing about.  Its also really a leads topic since its something I really don't need to know.  What is phrasing?  Where do you use it? What difference does it make?  What can you do with it?]

please expand.  cross phrasing sounds like someone reporting on their taxes par example

Sorry... unexpected absence. Cross-phrasing: nto adhering explicitly to the 8 counts/phrasings, but dancing over the phrases (ex: dancing past the 8 to accent the 1, or even the 2 of the subsequent measure/phrase, then returning to the norma/expected 1,8 phrasing.

[Bordertangoman]

SOUNDS really jazzy

[MusicChica]

Hmmm...to me, "cross-phrasing" sounds like playing with the timing to better accent the music.  But that could just be my musicality-freak background talking...

[mummsie]

Well in New Vogue we always use phrased music.  It just makes it so much easier to dance in time.  - mummsie

[drj]

If steps are words (and I'll dispute that), phrases are lines of poetry.

There's this kind of poetry:

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate

in which the idea of the line is complete at the end of the line, doesn't need to carry over

Then there's poetry like this:

I wonder, by my troth, what thou and I
Did, 'til we loved. Were we not weaned 'til then?

The first line is incomplete without the beginning of the second, yet the second line comes to closure, rather than needing to continue. The point I wish to make is that, although both excerpts are from sonnets, and they are both written in iambic pentameter (daDum daDum daDum daDum daDum) the first line of the first example is a complete phrase, not cross-phrased; the first line of the second example does not "...adhere explicitly to the 8 counts/phrasings", but dances over the phrases, as TD so delightfully wrote:
 

(ex: dancing past the 8 to accent the 1, or even the 2 of the subsequent measure/phrase, then returning to the norma/expected 1,8 phrasing)

And may I say that when I encounter a leader who can cross phrase, heaven is come to earth. But I am both a lapsed musician and a lapsed poet; YMMV.

Back to lurking

[elisedance]

drj.  how dare you just lurk!!

Thats one of the neatest posts on PDO...

I guess Tango, with its two beats, lends itself to cross=phrasing more easily than the other dances? 

but is cross phrasing a complex way of saying pause and then catch up?

[drj]

drj.  how dare you just lurk!!

When I have nothing to say, I keep quiet.

Thats one of the neatest posts on PDO...

Thank you!   

I guess Tango, with its two beats, lends itself to cross=phrasing more easily than the other dances? 

I would not know; I do Smooth, and Standard Tango is another dance entirely.

but is cross phrasing a complex way of saying pause and then catch up?

No. That is lingering, quite different, imho.
[/quote]

[elisedance]

drj.  how dare you just lurk!!

When I have nothing to say, I keep quiet.

Which is fine of course - and most would say preferable. 
OTOH if we all did that PDO would be a very quiet place indeed

but is cross phrasing a complex way of saying pause and then catch up?

No. That is lingering, quite different, imho.

[/quote]

Then I need a better example of a cross-phrase.  Maybe TD can count one out

[TangoDancer]

Then I need a better example of a cross-phrase.  Maybe TD can count one out

Lets' say we are dancing a regular Slow Watlz (1,2,3 - 4,5,6). Let's invision a RWK (right whisk) to chasse. Most would dance 1,2,3 (3 being whisk) - 4,5+6. A simple cross phrasing would simply be 1,2,3, 4, cross 5, lower 6, chasse 1,2+3, etc. Once one is accomplished w/ these simple cross phrasings, more complicated/exciting ones are possible. The point, of course, is to displace the normal/expected accented beats/counts, etc., giving the dance a more interesting look/feel.

[QPO]

so interesting, but my right brain cannot visualizes what you are saying. I have read and re-read this so many times, is there an visual example. I love the content and would love to implement this but cant work it out from what you say...perhaps it is because I am not far enough into my dancing yet to understand...

[Bordertangoman]

Is this a simpler example:

My favorite things;

most of the phrasing is:

Raindrops on roses = in 3/4 time tah ta ta tah ta ta

then on the third line the phrase extends to

Brown Paper packages tied up with string; which crosses over the 3/4 bar

[TangoDancer]

Good example; where one would accent "packages" instead of the end of "paper", etc.

[elisedance]

I don't get that TD - BROWN pa-per PACK a-ges is the same initial stress as RAIN drops-on ROses

Indeed both are incorrect readings I think - its as follows

DAH da-da DAH dah  (RAIN drops-on RO ses) is the first line
DAH da-da DAH dah  (WHISK ers-on KITT ens) is the second
DAH-da-da DAH-da-da (BROWN pa-per PACK a-ges)
DAH-da-da DAH    (TIED up with STRING)

So if this is an example then the extra syllable on packages and the loss of one after string would be it...

Q-ED

[Bordertangoman]

e-d you'er not listening; the first two lines are rhythmic and slightly staccato; brown panapaer packages has the same rhthm but its sung with less accent and more legato and ends with a long note on string. Go do your homework

[elisedance]

so its tone not timing you're saying?  but surely the timing difference is a factor...
besides the problem is not that I didn't do my homework but that I did it on the wrong asignment