balancing money, teaching/learning, dance partnership, practise, friendship..

[elisedance]

Hmmmm.  Are there any guys willing to do the same?

[emeralddancer]

I so have to think on this topic. I have so many thoughts running through my head on this and I do not want to just spout off what comes first.

Very very good topic elise ... will revisit.

[ttd]

Does anyone choose a pro-am partnership over a pro-pro or am-am partnership?

I can't for the life of me think of any reason to choose pro-am if there's an alternative option.

Well, there is such thing as quality. I suppose if I wanted just any am partner, I could have that, and then wait for him to catch up. Or I could have accepted that we will never be really good to compete and just go ahead and learn more patterns with my husband. But when I work with a pro (and a really good one, I might add), it's mainly limited by what I can and cannot do.

Btw, adding: there was a pro-am couple from Australia last time I competed.

[waltzelf]

Does anyone choose a pro-am partnership over a pro-pro or am-am partnership?

I can't for the life of me think of any reason to choose pro-am if there's an alternative option.

Well, there is such thing as quality. I suppose if I wanted just any am partner, I could have that, and then wait for him to catch up. Or I could have accepted that we will never be really good to compete and just go ahead and learn more patterns with my husband. But when I work with a pro (and a really good one, I might add), it's mainly limited by what I can and cannot do.

Btw, adding: there was a pro-am couple from Australia last time I competed.

I've yet to see a pro-am couple that dances as well as a top amateur or professional couple. Again, this may just be Australia, but quality of dancing? You're much better off making an investment of time and money into an Amateur partnership and watch it blossom and grow. It's a beautiful thing, moving through the ranks with someone who you don't have to keep paying to keep interested in you.

It would be good to see a bigger pro-am field for those ladies unlucky enough not to have a partner though. There's limited options for them, sadly.

[MusicChica]

I've yet to see a pro-am couple that dances as well as a top amateur or professional couple. Again, this may just be Australia, but quality of dancing? You're much better off making an investment of time and money into an Amateur partnership and watch it blossom and grow. It's a beautiful thing, moving through the ranks with someone who you don't have to keep paying to keep interested in you.

It would be good to see a bigger pro-am field for those ladies unlucky enough not to have a partner though. There's limited options for them, sadly.

Have you been to a large US competition and seen the very top-level Pro-Am couples?  If you haven't, you can't reasonably make that statement.  Maybe in Australia the Pro-Am isn't of great quality, but it's a whole different ballgame in the States.

And as for investing in an amateur partnership?  Yeah, that'd be great...except for the thousands of women who can't find an amateur partner because they just don't exist.  There are a lot of women in the US who do Pro-Am because it's the only way they can dance at a high level and compete.  I'm one of them.

[waltzelf]

Have you been to a large US competition and seen the very top-level Pro-Am couples?  If you haven't, you can't reasonably make that statement.  Maybe in Australia the Pro-Am isn't of great quality, but it's a whole different ballgame in the States.

I thought I made it quite clear I was talking from an Australian perspective.

Beyond that, remember, I asked "does anyone chose pro am over amateur or professional partnerships" - I'm well aware that there are many more women looking for partners that men available - but I've not seen any actual benefits that make pro am a more attractive choice if there is the option - and I've never personally come across someone who has turned down a reasonable prospect of an amateur/ professional partner to dance pro am instead.

[dream a little dream]

If money is no object, I would think that dancing with a pro would make your dancing better more quickly, as would competing with a pro. 
I can see dancing with an amateur as it is less expensive:  comps, practice, etc. 
Both seem to have their good points and bad.

[ttd]

Does anyone choose a pro-am partnership over a pro-pro or am-am partnership?

I can't for the life of me think of any reason to choose pro-am if there's an alternative option.

Well, there is such thing as quality. I suppose if I wanted just any am partner, I could have that, and then wait for him to catch up. Or I could have accepted that we will never be really good to compete and just go ahead and learn more patterns with my husband. But when I work with a pro (and a really good one, I might add), it's mainly limited by what I can and cannot do.

Btw, adding: there was a pro-am couple from Australia last time I competed.

I've yet to see a pro-am couple that dances as well as a top amateur or professional couple. Again, this may just be Australia, but quality of dancing? You're much better off making an investment of time and money into an Amateur partnership and watch it blossom and grow. It's a beautiful thing, moving through the ranks with someone who you don't have to keep paying to keep interested in you.

It would be good to see a bigger pro-am field for those ladies unlucky enough not to have a partner though. There's limited options for them, sadly.

You haven't seen one of the big comps here in US, with a large high-level pro-am field. When I watch the evening sessions at the competitions, I usually find that open pro-am is more interesting to watch than open am-am (which also happens in the evening), but not as interesting as pro-pro. Granted, I do not go to USA dance competitions, which draw bigger am-am fields.

And it also depends on your time horizon, I guess. At 36, I don't have as much time to wait for the guy to catch up in order to bring the partnership to some meaningful level, compared to someone who started in their 20s.

[MusicChica]

I thought I made it quite clear I was talking from an Australian perspective.

Beyond that, remember, I asked "does anyone chose pro am over amateur or professional partnerships" - I'm well aware that there are many more women looking for partners that men available - but I've not seen any actual benefits that make pro am a more attractive choice if there is the option - and I've never personally come across someone who has turned down a reasonable prospect of an amateur/ professional partner to dance pro am instead.

Yes, they do.  Some women just prefer dancing with a pro and all that that entails (don't have to worry about your partner, improving your own dancing faster, etc.), some women continue with Pro-Am because there are no partners of the right age or level available, and some women just don't want to go pro themselves.  This goes for male Pro-Ams too.

It happens. Frequently, in fact.  I can think of at least one example for each of the above in my own studio.

[elisedance]

I've yet to see a pro-am couple that dances as well as a top amateur or professional couple. Again, this may just be Australia, but quality of dancing? You're much better off making an investment of time and money into an Amateur partnership and watch it blossom and grow. It's a beautiful thing, moving through the ranks with someone who you don't have to keep paying to keep interested in you.

It would be good to see a bigger pro-am field for those ladies unlucky enough not to have a partner though. There's limited options for them, sadly.

It seems to me that you both admit that the pro-am dancing is rather limited in your experience (Australia) - which is fine - but then you go on to make judgements about pro-am dancing in general and the motives behind it.  IMO if your experience is, as you say, limited wouldn't it be better - and less likely to offend - if you posed your issues as questions and not declarative answers? 

The responses to your post have been excellent - they point out the fact that pro-am partners can be outstanding here and many do infact become pros (Corky Ballas for example started out in pro am).  I have seen a growing trend where pros that recruit partners from the amateur ranks dance with them in the pro-am circuit for training and testing before declaring their partnership. 

However, what you really don't understand is the older ams who elect to do pro-am.   As also posted above this set of dancers may not want to work up through the ranks with even an excellent AM prospect.  They want to dance at the best of their abilities with the best partner available.  These dancers are athletes in their own rite.  And they choose to do pro-am for many reasons.  One is the skill of the pro and the speed of learning, another is the pro-am competitions which can be a lot more fun than many of the AM ones are.  There is also another reason - and this applies really to the women - by paying for the partnership they are in essence in control and can develop their dancing and their competition as they see fit. 

I wish you could come to Ohio Star Ball this fall and watch - and perhaps wonder how well you would fare in competition against some of these (pro/am) dancesport competition stars. 

[standarddancer]

3 easy steps to being a paid social dance.


1) Get good at dancing

2) Find a middle aged Chinese lady. They like to be seen with handsome, well groomed, good dancers - it's a big part of the social dance community and status is key.

3) Reap the benefits.


Seriously, if you're good to your social partner, she will pay a fortune to look after you and dance with you. You will make a lot more money that way than teaching - a typical social runs for around 4 hours, and a halfway decent dancer will make much more than $280 for the night ($70/ hour lesson rate)

wow, that's nice money!!! never heard getting paid so much for social dancing. so those ladies only interested in looking good in social and no desire for compete pro-am?

[elisedance]

they don't really have pro-am in Australia SD.  So the motive is either social - or its the best they can do to get practise.

It would be interestign to know how many of these ladies also take private lessons and how many are looking for a partner to compete with.

[QPO]

I am not  sure what Pro/Am really means or I interpret it to be Pro=teacher Am=Student.

If that is the case, then it does occur here but it is not called Pro/Am I will look to see what it is. I know of someone that competes in some events with his teacher. Locally we dont have many but I believe interstate there are a few.

 Please correct me if I have got Pro/Am wrong.

Btw, adding: there was a pro-am couple from Australia last time I competed.

[QPO]

See my previous post about the Pro/Am siutation in Au.

they don't really have pro-am in Australia SD.  So the motive is either social - or its the best they can do to get practise.

On paying for a partner I don't know anyone here in Adelaide that has done that I will discuss it with friends tonight to see what they say. Waltzelf is in Sydney which of course has a larger population and a larger Asian Influence. I am not shocked by it and but wonder how prevalent it is.

It would be interesting to know how many of these ladies also take private lessons and how many are looking for a partner to compete with.

[dlgodud]

3 easy steps to being a paid social dance.


1) Get good at dancing

2) Find a middle aged Chinese lady. They like to be seen with handsome, well groomed, good dancers - it's a big part of the social dance community and status is key.

3) Reap the benefits.


Seriously, if you're good to your social partner, she will pay a fortune to look after you and dance with you. You will make a lot more money that way than teaching - a typical social runs for around 4 hours, and a halfway decent dancer will make much more than $280 for the night ($70/ hour lesson rate)

I've seen this kind of situations in the US, not just Australia. I've know the person quite a while and we shared the same teacher for a while. Then, she found another one recently and he is probably 21 something years old. She told me that he was a great teacher and took a lesson from him to see how it works. But, it turned out to be a disaster. He was a good dancer, but IMO I don't think he understood partner dancing. But, when I told him that the lady said that you are great, he brushed and told me that she liked him a lot. I wasn't that happy what I heard from his mouth, and I instantly decided not to go back to him.
I don't need a teacher who is pretty and well groomed, but don't know what he is doing. I want a teacher who will guide me and improve my dancing skill.
Well, I am not a native English speaker, but I can communicate with people without any problem. He did not even speak English very well, so how am I possibly learn something from him. Maybe basic materials work, but the reason I left my first teacher, who was amazing and spoke English very well, was he sometimes had problem with explain certain things. I got frustrated and felt stuck many times. Well, anyway I wanted to say that I've seen this and am not surprised at all.